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French Horn

Does anybody know what key a standard french horn is in?
And if the key signature of the piano is in G minor (Bb Major), what would be the key signature for the french horn?

Re: French Horn

Reply #1 –
This looks a lot like a homework question.  I'll let you find out what key a standard horn is in, but I will tell you, to get the key for for any transposing instrument, subtract it's major key signature from the concert pitch key.

For example, if you have E minor concert, clarinet in D would play as:

So 1 sharp (E minor concert) minus 2 sharps (D major as the key of the instrument) gives -1 sharp, or 1 flat, which is D minor for clarinet in D.

If it's not a homework question, apologies.

Re: French Horn

Reply #2 –
usually seen as "Horn in F"
So, if you are transposing from a "C" instrument, you need to end up with one more sharp or one fewer flat.
Registered user since 1996

Re: French Horn

Reply #3 –
According to Kennan, (The Technique of Orchrestration), the modern horn is in F as Rick says, however, it has two sets of tubing, ("double horn") -one in F and the other in (higher) Bb. There is a lever that enables the player to switch back and forth in order to extend the range of the instrument. The good news is that the transposition problems associated with this idiosyncracy are the players concern, not the notaters.
The notation is generally without a key signature and sharps & flats are written in where necessary, although a key signature may be used for diatonic music and then enharmonic spelling is not uncommon.
The problem I see is that the standard notation has changed somewhat recently so that players have become used to the old notation i.e. - desired sound written a 4th lower than actual pitch. Whereas the new standard is written a 5th higher!  Because players have become used to the old system, (still used in classical scores),it is wise to include a note in the score when the new system is employed.
Ex.-
Code: [Select · Download]
!NoteWorthyComposerClip(2.0,Single)
|Text|Text:"Actual sound desired"|Font:StaffLyric|Pos:12
|Clef|Type:Bass
|Note|Dur:Whole|Pos:-6
|Bar
|Text|Text:"Old Notation"|Font:StaffLyric|Pos:12
|Note|Dur:Whole|Pos:-9
|Bar
|Text|Text:"New Notation"|Font:StaffLyric|Pos:12
|Note|Dur:Whole|Pos:-2
!NoteWorthyComposerClip-End
The instruments range is:
Code: [Select · Download]
!NoteWorthyComposerClip(2.0,Single)
|Clef|Type:Bass
|Note|Dur:Whole|Pos:#-5
|Text|Text:"Sounding a perfect 5th lower"|Font:StaffLyric|Pos:-15
|Note|Dur:4th|Pos:-3
|Clef|Type:Treble
|Note|Dur:4th|Pos:5
|Note|Dur:Whole|Pos:8
!NoteWorthyComposerClip-End
When writing for the horn, it is written a perfect 5th higher than the sound desired.
Remember also that at it's extreme high and low notes, the instrument is generally weak and awkward, and is used more for sustained tones than for melodic passages. Again, notes above the G above the highest ledger line of the G-clef staff
are hard to produce and should be led up to, otherwise the player may not be able to hit them right on.
Hope this helps.

Re: French Horn

Reply #4 –
subtract it's major key signature

at it's extreme high and low notes

its its its its its its its its
its its its its its its its its
its its its its its its its its
its its its its its its its its
its its its its its its its its
its its its its its its its its
its its its its its its its its
its its its its its its its its

Re: French Horn

Reply #5 –
It's not a French Horn, it's a Freedom Horn.

Re: French Horn

Reply #6 –
Yes, Graham R., I know the difference, and usually get it right.  I apologise for getting it wrong - it obviously causes you very great concern.

I suspect that it's here to stay (i.e. "it's" instead of "its"), simply because "it's" is a much more common word than "its" (whether used correctly or not).  we are probably seeing English [abbr=if you'll pardon the cliche]evolve before our very eyes[/abbr].  In a thousand years' time students will be wondering about the inserted apostrophe in the third-person genitive of the pronoun "it".  Much like we wonder now about the extra "p" in [abbr=as opposed to "deceit"]"receipt"[/abbr].

Graham R., perhaps you might not realise that forum postings tend to be rather informal.  Some people leave out nouns and pronouns; "Hope this helps", rather than "I hope this helps".  Some people don't bother with quotation marks when quoting from other posts, and don't provide any extra text apart from a pronoun repeated sixty-four times.  And some of us aren't too fussed if we ain't always got perfectish English.

Cheers, Ewan

Re: French Horn

Reply #7 –
DGF, Kennan's book appears to be quite old!  Either that, or [abbr=she's?]he's[/abbr] just repeating from older works.

Key signatures for horns have been around almost as long as pistons.  It was only with natural horns that key signatures were pointless.  Still, there have always been some composers who stuck to the rule "no-key-signatures-in-horn-parts", but it's not as all-encompassing as some text-books make out.

On the other hand, many composers wrote for [abbr=even if they had pistons/valves]horns - and trumpets -[/abbr] in the key of the piece, so the parts would be in C major/A minor, which has a key signature of... !  This is possibly where the "rule" started - because horns didn't have a key signature, then they probably shouldn't.

With "old" notation and [abbr=the standard one, not the one an octave up]horn in F[/abbr], I thought that generally applied only to bass clef.  There might have been a very early period when it applied to treble clef, but usually not by the time Handel was writing.

"New" notation has been around at least since the baroque for treble clef, and at latest, the late 19th century for bass clef.  It's usually only orchestral horn players who know about old notation, and only 2nd and 4th horn players who have to worry about it!

I strongly recommend using "new" notation at all times.  You needn't write anything in your scores saying you're doing so!  If you are copying out an old-notation score, and want to stick to the original notation, it might be worth putting in a note, but it would be easier on the player to shift it up an octave into "new" notation.  Just because it cost engravers lots of time and money to update to modern notation, doesn't mean we have to live in the past!

Re: French Horn

Reply #8 –
With most french horn players clefs, key signatures, and accidentals are generally pointless. <g>
Registered user since 1996

Re: French Horn

Reply #9 –
French Horn

A brass instrument that resembles a snail, but sometimes moves more quickly. The complicated instrument of today is a direct descendant of the early horn used by hunters. It was originally long and straight, but got its present shape when trod upon by a horse. The French Horn is actually German, and is not to be confused with the English Horn, which is French.

Re: French Horn

Reply #10 –
Quotes from Grade School Essays on Classical Music -  Source: a Missouri music teachers' newsletter.

The main trouble with a French horn is it's too tangled up.

Re: French Horn

Reply #11 –
Thanks for the update Ewan.  "Old" and "new" are relative terms.  It's obvious that I don't play the horn, but I thought the evolution of the instrument as well as its notation interesting. This text was originally published in '52.  I'm sure much has changed since then, however there are few books on the subject that condescend to my level of musicianship and I have found it to be a very useful resource. That being said, I would not usually think of classifying anything that goes back to the baroque period as "new".

Re: French Horn

Reply #12 –
Hi Ewan and DGF [and everyone else  :)  ],
for a slightly different perspective...

My Alfred's states:
  • In orchestral scoring, horns in F are traditionally scored without a key signature.  In concert band, horns are scored using key signatures.

  • It is standard practice for the horn in F to be notated in treble clef.  Although the player is capable of reading in the bass clef, they are apt to be less proficient at it.  Notes written in bass clef should not extend above written G.
NB the bolding is as from Alfred's, not me.

I could find no reference in Alfred's to notating a 4th lower, only a 5th higher.

I've got a buddy who teaches horn in the local conseravatorium - must try and remember to ask him next time I see him.

Lawrie

Re: French Horn

Reply #13 –
I am grateful to one and all for this topic.  I have always been afraid to write for the French Horn, often for technical reasons.  Great to have many lingering questions answered.

Re: French Horn

Reply #14 –
Lawrie said "I could find no reference in Alfred's to notating a 4th lower, only a 5th higher."

In my earlier life as a professional copyist I worked for many arrangers. In every case the written part for the Horn was transposed up a fifth with a key signature.
I should qualify that by saying that all my copying was for popular music, (TV, commercial recording and concerts), not classical  and more often than not the scores were written in concert pitch which required transposition copying on the fly.
This seemed to be common practice with arrangers in Melbourne.

Re: French Horn

Reply #15 –
Ok, that answers that. But one more question that I forgot to ask, What's the lowest note a french horn can reach comfortably? I am writing a concert band piece, and at one point in the song, the french horn play's a long continous G below the treble clef (five half-steps below middle C). Can the french horn play this easily, or do I need to shift it an octave up? (this was after I transposed it) Sorry if this doesn't make sense. (I'm known to ask question's that don't make sense)

Re: French Horn

Reply #16 –
Wait, nevermind that last post. I see DGF already answered that question for me. Thanks.

Re: French Horn

Reply #17 –
...french horn play's ... ...I'm known to ask question's...
...french horn plays ... ...I'm known to ask questions...

Re: French Horn

Reply #18 –
Wow. I think I need to go back to grammar school.

Re: French Horn

Reply #19 –
Hi!

Practical case:

Mahler, in the first movement of his 5th Symphony, writes the Horn score as follows:

Code: [Select · Download]
!NoteWorthyComposerClip(2.0,Single)
|Clef|Type:Treble
|Rest|Dur:Half
|Dynamic|Style:f|Pos:-7|Wide:Y
|Text|Text:"  "|Font:StaffItalic|Pos:-7|Wide:Y
|Note|Dur:4th,Dotted,Slur,Accent|Pos:0
|Note|Dur:8th,Slur|Pos:#-1
|Bar
|Note|Dur:Half|Pos:#-5
|Note|Dur:4th,Dotted,Slur,Accent|Pos:0
|Note|Dur:8th,Slur|Pos:#-1
|Bar
|Note|Dur:Half|Pos:#-6
|Note|Dur:4th,Dotted,Slur,Accent|Pos:0
|Note|Dur:8th,Slur|Pos:#-1
|Clef|Type:Bass
|Bar
|Note|Dur:Whole,Slur,Accent|Pos:#-7^
|Bar
|Note|Dur:4th|Pos:#-7
|Rest|Dur:4th
|Clef|Type:Treble
|Dynamic|Style:p|Pos:-7|Wide:Y
|Text|Text:"  "|Font:StaffItalic|Pos:-7|Wide:Y
|Note|Dur:4th,Slur|Pos:-7
|Rest|Dur:4th
|Bar
|Note|Dur:4th,Slur|Pos:#-8
|Rest|Dur:4th
|Rest|Dur:Half
|Bar
|Rest|Dur:Half
|Note|Dur:4th,Slur|Pos:-4
|Rest|Dur:4th
|Bar
|Note|Dur:8th,Slur|Pos:#-5
|Rest|Dur:8th
|Rest|Dur:4th
|Rest|Dur:Half
|Bar
|Dynamic|Style:mf|Pos:-7|Wide:Y
|Text|Text:"  "|Font:StaffItalic|Pos:-7|Wide:Y
|Note|Dur:4th,Slur|Pos:#-8
|Rest|Dur:8th
|Note|Dur:8th,Slur|Pos:#-9
|Note|Dur:4th,Slur|Pos:-8
|Rest|Dur:8th
|Note|Dur:8th,Slur|Pos:-7
|Clef|Type:Bass
|Bar
|Note|Dur:Whole,Slur|Pos:#-7^
|Bar
|Dynamic|Style:pp|Pos:-7|Wide:Y
|Text|Text:"  "|Font:StaffItalic|Pos:-7|Wide:Y
|Note|Dur:Half|Pos:#-7
|Rest|Dur:Half
|Clef|Type:Treble
|Bar
|Rest|Dur:Whole
!NoteWorthyComposerClip-End
How should it sound? 7 semitones lower for the Treble Clef and 5 semitones higher for the Bass Clef?

Thank you!

Re: French Horn

Reply #20 –
Yes

Code: [Select · Download]
!NoteWorthyComposerClip(2.0,Single)
|Clef|Type:Treble
|Rest|Dur:Half
|Instrument|Name:"Horn in F"|Patch:60|Trans:-7|DynVel:10,30,45,60,75,92,108,127|Pos:8|Visibility:Always
|Dynamic|Style:f|Pos:-7|Wide:Y
|Text|Text:"  "|Font:StaffItalic|Pos:-7|Wide:Y
|Note|Dur:4th,Dotted,Slur,Accent|Pos:0
|Note|Dur:8th,Slur|Pos:#-1
|Bar
|Note|Dur:Half|Pos:#-5
|Note|Dur:4th,Dotted,Slur,Accent|Pos:0
|Note|Dur:8th,Slur|Pos:#-1
|Bar
|Note|Dur:Half|Pos:#-6
|Note|Dur:4th,Dotted,Slur,Accent|Pos:0
|Note|Dur:8th,Slur|Pos:#-1
|Instrument|Name:" "|Patch:60|Trans:5|DynVel:10,30,45,60,75,92,108,127|Pos:8|Wide:Y
|Clef|Type:Bass
|Bar
|Note|Dur:Whole,Slur,Accent|Pos:#-7^
|Bar
|Note|Dur:4th|Pos:#-7
|Rest|Dur:4th
|Clef|Type:Treble
|Dynamic|Style:p|Pos:-7|Wide:Y
|Text|Text:"  "|Font:StaffItalic|Pos:-7|Wide:Y
|Note|Dur:4th,Slur|Pos:-7
|Rest|Dur:4th
|Bar
|Note|Dur:4th,Slur|Pos:#-8
|Rest|Dur:4th
|Rest|Dur:Half
|Bar
|Rest|Dur:Half
|Note|Dur:4th,Slur|Pos:-4
|Rest|Dur:4th
|Bar
|Note|Dur:8th,Slur|Pos:#-5
|Rest|Dur:8th
|Rest|Dur:4th
|Rest|Dur:Half
|Bar
|Dynamic|Style:mf|Pos:-7|Wide:Y
|Text|Text:"  "|Font:StaffItalic|Pos:-7|Wide:Y
|Note|Dur:4th,Slur|Pos:#-8
|Rest|Dur:8th
|Note|Dur:8th,Slur|Pos:#-9
|Note|Dur:4th,Slur|Pos:-8
|Rest|Dur:8th
|Note|Dur:8th,Slur|Pos:-7
|Clef|Type:Bass
|Bar
|Note|Dur:Whole,Slur|Pos:#-7^
|Bar
|Dynamic|Style:pp|Pos:-7|Wide:Y
|Text|Text:"  "|Font:StaffItalic|Pos:-7|Wide:Y
|Note|Dur:Half|Pos:#-7
|Rest|Dur:Half
|Clef|Type:Treble
|Instrument|Name:" "|Patch:60|Trans:-7|DynVel:10,30,45,60,75,92,108,127|Pos:8|Wide:Y
|Bar
!NoteWorthyComposerClip-End
Use invisible name for changing transposition

Tina

Re: French Horn

Reply #21 –
Sorry. I missed a few clef changes. But it should be enough to get you going. Insert instrument change at clef; in the instrument window change the transposition, overwrite the instrument name with a single space.

Tina