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Quintuplet Problem

Attached is a portion of my latest piano composition (NCW2 File). Notice measures 5-6 do not quite fit the measures. I am aware that quintuplets are impossible in NWC2, but if there is any way to edit these measures in such a way that the visuals are not skewed (and the beats add up correctly) please help me out. I need to print this piece out soon, so even if it doesn't sound right it needs to look right. How might I do this? Thanks.

Re: Quintuplet Problem

Reply #1 –
Make the extra rests you're using to get things to line up invisible.  I.E. Print Never
I plays 'Bones, crumpets, coronets, floosgals, youfonymums 'n tubies.

Re: Quintuplet Problem

Reply #2 –
I understand what you mean, but regardless of sound I need to print of the piece as a visual. As I have attempted to edit these two measures, I have encountered a few problems, all of which seem unsolvable. Because I cannot notate quintuplets, the measures do not allign properly. If I decide to add rests to balance it out, the measures do not line up. If I turn the sixteenth notes into triplets, the notes sound horribly rushed. I wonder if creating rolled chords would be much easier and more systematic. Do you think this is a proper case for rolled chords? If so, how might I notate these measures? Thanks.

Re: Quintuplet Problem

Reply #3 –
Here's the best non-rolled chord version I could come up with (see attached). This notation is the only way I could stay consistent with the 6/8 beat (measure lines are right where they need to be) and the closest I could create to the original sound. Take a look. Thanks.

Re: Quintuplet Problem

Reply #4 –
Quote from: smelin5 –
how might I notate these measures?
Forget the pentuplet for now. Simulate it with 4 normal notes and a grace note. First, you need to get 6 8th note beats in each measure. When you solve that problem, attach it and we can work on the pentuplet.

You have a lot of triplets. These are not common in 6/8. You might want to consider a different meter.
Registered user since 1996

Re: Quintuplet Problem

Reply #5 –
I don't quite understand why you say "simulate it with 4 normal notes and a grace note". In the attachment I will give you my entire piece so far (only 108 measures). If you wouldn't mind, please edit these two measures for me the way you mention. Obviously NWC2 doesn't support tuplets, so perhaps your method will find a solution. Please do what you can. Thanks.

Re: Quintuplet Problem

Reply #6 –
G'day smelin5,
as Rick says, you need to get 6 * 8th note beats in the bar.  However, from what you say you only need to do this visually...

So, some possibilities...  N.B. I haven't looked into the finer detail - I'm supposed to be working (s'OK - I own the business)...

Maybe you could:
  • Forget tuplets altogether and write it out using 16ths and/or 32nds
  • Keep the (fake) tuplets and adjust the rests so that the visible ones and the notes add up to the right number of beats and make sure the other rests needed to make things line up are marked invisible.  They will still show in the editor but they won't print.
  • make 2 bars out of 'em instead of 1 - in your last example, if you ignore the "5" for the fake pentuplet they add up to that anyway...

<edit> fixed typo in name
I plays 'Bones, crumpets, coronets, floosgals, youfonymums 'n tubies.

Re: Quintuplet Problem

Reply #7 –
Quote from: smelin5 –
I don't quite understand why you say "simulate it with 4 normal notes and a grace note". If you wouldn't mind, please edit these two measures for me
The barline in this:
Quote from: Measure 101
!NoteWorthyComposerClip(2.0,Single)
|Note|Dur:8th,Triplet=First,Accent|Pos:6|Opts:Stem=Down,Beam=First
|Note|Dur:8th,Triplet|Pos:1|Opts:Stem=Down,Beam
|Note|Dur:8th,Triplet=End|Pos:-1|Opts:Stem=Down,Beam=End
|Rest|Dur:8th,Dotted
|Note|Dur:16th,Triplet=First|Pos:-8|Opts:Stem=Up,Beam=First
|Note|Dur:16th,Triplet|Pos:-6|Opts:Stem=Up,Beam
|Note|Dur:16th,Triplet=End|Pos:-4|Opts:Stem=Up,Beam=End
|Rest|Dur:8th,Dotted
|Note|Dur:16th,Grace|Pos:-1|Opts:Stem=Up
|Note|Dur:16th|Pos:1|Opts:Stem=Down,Beam=First
|Text|Text:"5"|Font:StaffItalic|Pos:8
|Note|Dur:16th|Pos:3|Opts:Stem=Down,Beam
|Note|Dur:16th|Pos:1|Opts:Stem=Down,Beam
|Note|Dur:16th|Pos:-1|Opts:Stem=Down,Beam=End
|Rest|Dur:8th,Dotted
|Note|Dur:16th,Triplet=First|Pos:-4|Opts:Stem=Up,Beam=First
|Note|Dur:16th,Triplet|Pos:-6|Opts:Stem=Up,Beam
|Note|Dur:16th,Triplet=End|Pos:-8|Opts:Stem=Up,Beam=End
|Rest|Dur:8th
|Bar
!NoteWorthyComposerClip-End
Has to align with this:
Quote from: 6 beats to the bar
!NoteWorthyComposerClip(2.0,Single)
|Rest|Dur:8th
|Rest|Dur:8th
|Rest|Dur:8th
|Rest|Dur:8th
|Rest|Dur:8th
|Rest|Dur:8th
|Bar
|Rest|Dur:8th
|Rest|Dur:8th
|Rest|Dur:8th
|Rest|Dur:8th
|Rest|Dur:8th
|Rest|Dur:8th
|Bar
!NoteWorthyComposerClip-End
When that happens, we can work on the pentuplet.

Also, in the left hand, do you serious mean: 3 triplet 8th's, 3 straight 16th's, 3 triplet 16th's? If so, I suggest an ad lib cadenza with an appropriate accelerando.
Registered user since 1996

Re: Quintuplet Problem

Reply #8 –
Ok guys I've finally fixed it! With a lot of maticulous separation of beats, I finally fixed the two measures. Apparently there were no needed tuplets at all, just sixteenth notes. There is only one problem left: beaming the notes. These two bars are very tricky so I left them unbeamed. I tested the auto beamer in NWC2 but the results were horrendous. I would be grateful if one of you would help me out by beaming these measures (and checking to make sure it looks right). Thanks. (see attachment)

Re: Quintuplet Problem

Reply #9 –
Example 1: I think this is about right... 

But if it was me and I had some time I think I'd actually do some "cross staff" beaming so it all looked connected...

Maybe something like ex. 2 - Rick is better at this than me, he sees a lot more piano stuff...
I plays 'Bones, crumpets, coronets, floosgals, youfonymums 'n tubies.

Re: Quintuplet Problem

Reply #10 –
Before I look at yours, Lawrie it's only fair that I post mine. I added a beat track (which can be hidden or deleted), changed some durations (in magenta) and moved some notes to the other staff (in red). My rule is: don't change staffs mid-beat without a good reason. It interrupts the visual flow. After adding a few hidden TimeSigs, the result was automatically beamed.

Oh, yeah, I changed an armload of rests. Rests can't be any old thing that fills the space. They have beat constraints as well.
Registered user since 1996

Re: Quintuplet Problem

Reply #11 –
You might want to check out this user tip: https://forum.noteworthycomposer.com/?topic=2326.0
It was used in the Thais Meditation http://nwc-scriptorium.org/ftp/classical/m/masmed.nwc

Just tried to add 8th rests to a new staff.  Were those measures short?
Since 1998

Re: Quintuplet Problem

Reply #12 –
Looked at your attachment Warren, and all I can say is:
Quote from: Rick G. –
Rests can't be any old thing that fills the space. They have beat constraints as well.
Registered user since 1996

Re: Quintuplet Problem

Reply #13 –
Rick, I believe you are the closest to solving this problem in your "needhelpbeaming1.nwc" post. However, if I were to pick up this piece and try to play it, it would make no sense. Basically, in the two fast measures the LH plays three notes, followed by three notes in the RH. Then the arpeggio goes back down-that's all. I agree with your edited rests, but you cannot simply move one note from a set of three to the other staff to look cleaner-then the pianist will play the notes with the wrong hands and make it much harder on themselves. All I need to show is three notes LH, three notes RH. If you can find a way to edit this again, I would be grateful. Thanks.

P.S. Warren, your edit makes absolutely no sense :P

Re: Quintuplet Problem

Reply #14 –
Here's another way to look at it, using shifting meters, which I think is what is really causing the problem here (Rick started to put his finger on it back in reply #4). I think you'd also want to use some slurs to group the notes in each run, but I haven't tried to do that in this "quick and dirty" version. Hope it helps -

Bill

Re: Quintuplet Problem

Reply #15 –
Quote from: smelin5 –
Warren, your edit makes absolutely no sense :P
I was trying to show there was either a missing bar line or a missing 12/8 time signature.  Also, pure quintuplets or pentuplets need to be accompanied by a temporary increase in tempo by a factor of 5/4 while objects in other staves need to be lengthened by a quarter.  Here it was just a matter of adding rests until your bar lines matched and hiding the newly inserted ones.

I also like William's solution to your problem, which seems to not use quintuplets at all.
Since 1998

Re: Quintuplet Problem

Reply #16 –
Thank you William, I believe you have closed this case. You have provided the most exact interpretation of what I am trying to do. I will just use what you posted. Thanks a lot.

P.S. Warren I understand what you were trying to do, but it had no application to my case. Thanks for trying though. I was poking fun at you for that earlier.
 

Re: Quintuplet Problem

Reply #17 –
Always glad to help. If it were my piece, I would leave the hemiola in m. 2 but convert to 3/4 in m. 3, 4/4 in m. 4 (extended to include the 2/8 measure that follows it), and then the rest as written. Fewer barlines that way, and closer to the pulse of the music. Do you know how to slur across staves in NWC? It will require the use of at least one layered staff.

Bill