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Topic: V 2.17 Beta Observation: Key Changes (Read 15351 times) previous topic - next topic

V 2.17 Beta Observation: Key Changes

When changing keys for a section of a song (opening and closing section bars, clef and new key signature, return to the original key- posting clef and key signature after the closing bar) only the section bars are seen on the printed copy. Further, when such a key change traverses more than one staff line, the new signature isn't affixed to the first measure of the subsequent staves. Instead, one finds the song's default (original) key posted.

Re: V 2.17 Beta Observation: Key Changes

Reply #1 –
I recently copied out an instrumental part that had 12 key changes.  While I only used double bar lines, rather than section open and close, the key signature changes were fine in print preview and hard copy. 

Not sure why you need to insert a clef sign when you change keys. 

If you attach a copy of your song file some of us can look it over and see what's going wrong.

Re: V 2.17 Beta Observation: Key Changes

Reply #2 –
Quote from: acasson –
... when such a key change traverses more than one staff line ...
You must change the Key in each staff, just like at the beginning of the song.

All BarLine types, Keys, Flows, and Special Endings should also align vertically down the score unless you are trying to achieve some strange effect.
Registered user since 1996

Re: V 2.17 Beta Observation: Key Changes

Reply #3 –
Hmm, acasson, by chance are you creating new staves for each "line" of your music?  The NWC editor works from left to right, and right, and right, and right - ad nauseum.  You don't see the staff "wrap" until you Print or Print|Preview.

If you are adding staves, then you are adding instruments...  And each one must be setup individually - which only makes sense...  Each new instrument could be tuned to any key - may be a trumpet, harp, horn, anything - and not necessarily in concert pitch.

You can see this quite graphically when you play your music, each staff will play concurrently, not sequentially.
I plays 'Bones, crumpets, coronets, floosgals, youfonymums 'n tubies.

Re: V 2.17 Beta Observation: Key Changes

Reply #4 –
That is most likely the case.  As I've noted before, almost every user (including myself, when I started using NWC) has had trouble with this.  But once you get used to it, anything else (Finale or Sibelius) drives you crazy.
If you're having trouble grasping what Lawrie's saying, try downloading a file from the Scriptorium.

Re: V 2.17 Beta Observation: Key Changes

Reply #5 –
Rick, you're right on the target. David, I like using a clef with a key change to catch the attention of the player. I've found it reduces confusion for some.

Re: V 2.17 Beta Observation: Key Changes

Reply #6 –
Afterthought- Rick, for NWC's info, I'd like to have the ability to change the key at any point in the staff and see the key reflected in subsequent staves until such time as the key is again changed. No strange effects- just scripting the song as it's to be played without undue hurdles for the player. Such changes, midstream, aren't unusual.

Re: V 2.17 Beta Observation: Key Changes

Reply #7 –
Lawrie, kahman, thanks for your thoughts. (You weren't ignored.)

Re: V 2.17 Beta Observation: Key Changes

Reply #8 –
I still think that, by how you say "I'd like to have the ability to change the key at any point in the staff," that means that you are misusing NWC's staff/system management.
What should happen is that the key would be changed at a point in the staff and reflected in the same staff in subsequent systems.
As Lawrie said, it is most likely that you are "creating new staves for each 'line' of your music", otherwise this wouldn't be necessary.
To have a staff continue onto another line, do not create a new staff, but just allow it to extend horizontally.  A new staff is for a new instrument.  To see how it looks when printed out, simply go to "print preview".  Look at any piece in the sample directory for an example.  (The simpler ones are better if you're just trying to see this, try NOWELL.nwc.)

Re: V 2.17 Beta Observation: Key Changes

Reply #9 –
Acasson, welcome aboard!  There are many, many readers of these forums, and we often explore various problems.  Sometimes we agree, sometimes we don't, but you'll be a welcome participant, either pointing out a problem, or pointing out a solution.

I don't think I've ever seen a clef repeated when there's a key signature, and I've played a lot of charts over the years.  If I were playing an instrument that does regularly change clefs, such as the piano, or perhaps a bassoon,*  I think it would throw me off until I realized it was just the way you do things.  But since you know your audience, and if they're used to your methods, no problem.

Where you write
Quote
reflected in subsequent staves
we need to make sure we understand what you mean.

If you're writing for one instrument, and by "subsequent" staff, you mean the second, third, etc., staffs that show in print preview and on the printed page as a result of "wrapping," the current clef and key signature indeed does appear at the beginning of each line.

If however, you mean that you're writing for a piano or for two or more instruments, the edit window will have more than one staff.  If the second, third, etc., staff is what you mean by "subsequent," NWC2 does require you to enter your clefs, keys, bar lines, etc. on each staff.  It doesn't assume all the parts will be in the same key, because some people write in concert pitch and then transpose, others may just be transcribing a full score that is already transposed.

I think it's a good behaviour, rather than a weakness in the program.  It's only a few keystrokes to do a copy/paste from one staff to another, and I think that's better than have some automatic process that will screw the user up because the program's logic differs from the user's thinking.

One thing you will learn as you continue to work with NWC is that it's elegantly simple, with workarounds for almost anything you'll need.  However, that doesn't always mean it's all things to all people.  At the price, though...

Glad you enjoyed the cat.  Did you solve the coffee cup holder problem?  If a ceramic mug won't work, try styrofoam...  Better make sure your keyboard isn't below the cup holder though.  I got an email from a fellow in Norway last night whose-space-bar-stopped-working-because-he-spilled-coffee-over-the-keyboard.

Re: V 2.17 Beta Observation: Key Changes

Reply #10 –
Thanks for the welcome David. Here, I'm speaking of a single line, serial as it were. When the line wraps, it automatically posts the original signature of the song. It may be that when I change the key at the beginning of the line, as earlier suggested, the problem will disappear. But, more than likely, rather than deal with "X" number of empty measures, etc., etc., I'll likely use accidentals or pen the key signatures. In this case, the section isn't very long, so until the final arrangement is created, on other software, I'll simply use accidentals. I agree with you regarding NWC. I've used it since circa '98 for writing basic tunes. Since this is a Beta run, I thought I'd toss my "two cents" in for NWC to ponder. Oh, the cup holder: I'm an IT tech support rep for a number of universities colleges around the nation. A staffer once called complaining that her pc's retractable cup holder broke. Go figure.

Re: V 2.17 Beta Observation: Key Changes

Reply #11 –
I don't understand why your system isn't doing the key signatures correctly.  They are fine for me - see the gif attachment.

Can you do a print preview of your piece, then take a screen shot and make it into a gif format image, and send it along, please?  Or attach the song file itself. 

I'm pretty sure somebody in this forum can solve the problem for you.

Re: V 2.17 Beta Observation: Key Changes

Reply #12 –
G'day acasson,
Quote from: acasson –
When the line wraps, it automatically posts the original signature of the song.

Umm, just how are you changing the key?  As David has said, and demonstrated, this just works...

To change key signature, press <K>, or click |Insert|Key Signature|, or click the icon with 3 sharps on the toolbar.  Make your selections from the dialogue box and away you go.

If you're trying anything else it's wrong, if you're doing it right, then it works...  I don't understand - I think we really need you to post some examples for us.
I plays 'Bones, crumpets, coronets, floosgals, youfonymums 'n tubies.

Re: V 2.17 Beta Observation: Key Changes

Reply #13 –
There's nothing to see in this particular song, other than the fact that the key change isn't there. Yep, I'm using the incorporated tool to set the key and changes that follow. Perhaps, as Dave has alluded, it has something to do with my use of section bars to define the section. Presently, I'm busy preparing the song of our discussion for release to some musicians- my work with NWC is finished, regarding this particular song. But, knock on wood, I'll play with the issue again, within the next day or so, and report back.

Re: V 2.17 Beta Observation: Key Changes

Reply #14 –
G'day acasson,
I've tried every combination I can think of to try to replicate what I think you're describing and I can't make it happen.

I look forward to an example.
I plays 'Bones, crumpets, coronets, floosgals, youfonymums 'n tubies.

Re: V 2.17 Beta Observation: Key Changes

Reply #15 –
Right you are, Lawrie. I reinstalled the software. The problem no longer exists. Thanks.

Re: V 2.17 Beta Observation: Key Changes

Reply #16 –
Did the reinstallation solve the printing problem too?  If so, maybe there's a bug in the installation routine that the rest of us haven't encountered.  Are you running Vista?

Re: V 2.17 Beta Observation: Key Changes

Reply #17 –
Hey David. Nope, XP. I agree. There was more than likely something that corrupted the original installation. It seems o.k. now. I ran through several changes on a blank score without problems. I then opened the song of our discussion and made the changes without incident. Makes life easier for me. Again thanks to all.

Re: V 2.17 Beta Observation: Key Changes

Reply #18 –
Sorry, David, I missed one- no, the printer problem still exists. The printer is getting on in years. I really don't expect much out of it.
 

Re: V 2.17 Beta Observation: Key Changes

Reply #19 –
G'day acasson,
glad you've got it happening.
I plays 'Bones, crumpets, coronets, floosgals, youfonymums 'n tubies.