Possible bug report - hanging tie from accidental?

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Possible bug report - hanging tie from accidental?

2004-12-29 06:41 am

Not sure if this is a bug or not.

Here, there's a hanging note from F at the end of bar 2 tied to F at the F beginning of bar 3, caused by the accidental Fb an octave higher on a grace note in bar 2. This passage is treble clef, in the key of Bb major.

I think this is unintended behaviour. If I recall an earlier discussion of accidentals, the lower F should not have been affected by the accidental an octave up.

Code: [Select · Download]

!NoteWorthyComposerClip(2.0,Single)
|Note|Dur:8th,Triplet=First|Pos:b2|Opts:Stem=Down,Beam=First
|Note|Dur:8th,Triplet|Pos:0|Opts:Stem=Down,Beam
|Note|Dur:8th,Triplet=End|Pos:2|Opts:Stem=Down,Beam=End
|Note|Dur:8th,Triplet=First|Pos:3|Opts:Stem=Down,Beam=First
|Note|Dur:8th,Triplet|Pos:2|Opts:Stem=Down,Beam
|Note|Dur:8th,Triplet=End|Pos:3|Opts:Stem=Down,Beam=End
|Note|Dur:8th,Triplet=First|Pos:b4|Opts:Stem=Down,Beam=First
|Note|Dur:8th,Triplet|Pos:3|Opts:Stem=Down,Beam
|Note|Dur:8th,Triplet=End|Pos:2|Opts:Stem=Down,Beam=End
|Note|Dur:8th|Pos:0|Opts:Stem=Down,Beam=First
|Note|Dur:8th|Pos:7^|Opts:Stem=Down,Beam=End
|Bar
|Note|Dur:4th|Pos:7
|Note|Dur:32nd,Grace,Slur|Pos:b4|Opts:Stem=Up,Beam=First
|Note|Dur:32nd,Grace,Slur|Pos:3|Opts:Stem=Up,Beam=End
|Note|Dur:8th|Pos:b2|Opts:Stem=Down,Beam=First
|Note|Dur:8th|Pos:0^|Opts:Stem=Down,Beam=End
|Note|Dur:4th|Pos:0
|Note|Dur:8th|Pos:n2|Opts:Stem=Up,Beam=First
|Note|Dur:8th|Pos:-3^|Opts:Stem=Up,Beam=End
|Bar
|Note|Dur:4th|Pos:-3
|Note|Dur:8th|Pos:-2|Opts:Stem=Up,Beam=First
|Note|Dur:8th|Pos:0|Opts:Stem=Up,Beam=End
|Note|Dur:4th|Pos:0
|Note|Dur:8th|Pos:2|Opts:Stem=Down,Beam=First
|Note|Dur:8th|Pos:4^|Opts:Stem=Down,Beam=End
|Bar
|Note|Dur:4th|Pos:4
!NoteWorthyComposerClip-End

I could be misremembering, but I thought I'd bring it to NWC's attention in case it needs to be fixed. Meanwhile, I'll just enter a natural sign to correct it.

Hmm, it would be nice if it was possible to hide the natural sign...

Re: Possible bug report - hanging tie from accidental?

Reply #1 – 2004-12-29 08:55 am

The behaviour is, as far as I know, correct.

I have often wondered why there were natural signs in my bass staff of a 'Klavierauszug', when there were not sharps or flats preceding it.
At some point, I received the explanation 'because there is a sharp in the orchestra' (which I did not see in my sheet music) and, a Fb is carried through all the staffs.

In your clip, a natural sign would be in order, to prevent confusion.

Rob.

btw, I would greatly appreciate it when someone could tell me what to use when: staff+staffs, stave+staves.

Re: Possible bug report - hanging tie from accidental?

Reply #2 – 2004-12-29 10:47 am

The behaviour is absolutely incorrect. Accidentals affect only notes at the same pitch. This is another glaring and oft commented on fault which should have been corrected a long time ago.

Why can't NWC do accidentals properly? ;-)

The easiest work round is to tie an invisible grace note with the right accidental to the offending note. Or, indeed as suggested, to insert a courtesy accidental.

Although all the variations of staff are permissible, I would suggest that the plural is almost always staves. There's not much to choose between the singular versions but staff is my preference.

Re: Possible bug report - hanging tie from accidental?

Reply #3 – 2004-12-29 01:14 pm

*--[The easiest work round is to tie an invisible grace note with the right accidental to the offending note.]--*

-->>the playback wouldn't sound correct if you're dealing with a chord

Re: Possible bug report - hanging tie from accidental?

Reply #4 – 2004-12-29 02:39 pm

Well yes, but there's a simple work round to that too ...

Re: Possible bug report - hanging tie from accidental?

Reply #5 – 2004-12-29 05:26 pm

This is an architectural quirk of NWC. Note accidentals apply in all octaves within the bar. The way to avoid the problem at present is to always use the correct accidental in all other octaves of that same named note after you use an accidental in one octave of the named note.

Re: Possible bug report - hanging tie from accidental?

Reply #6 – 2004-12-29 06:43 pm

Note accidentals apply in all octaves within the bar.

But not, apparently, when it's supposed to be the same note.

Code: [Select · Download]

!NoteWorthyComposerClip(2.0,Single)
|Clef|Type:Treble
|TimeSig|Signature:4/4
|Chord|Dur:Half|Pos:1|Opts:Stem=Down|Dur2:Half|Pos2:#1
!NoteWorthyComposerClip-End

I would expect that a note added to a chord should pick up any accidentals already there.

I'm sorry to harp on about a notator that does not play back correctly what is written correctly: it has to be a definite minus point. And I'd have thought that a major revision such as NWC2 would have sorted this out.

Let's just hope that at present means just that, and that the near future holds something better

Re: Possible bug report - hanging tie from accidental?

Reply #7 – 2004-12-29 10:49 pm

After having used Noteworthy for quite a while, this behaviour is exactly what I would expect.
You get what you enter, so to speak. But it can be quite confusing, because here, you don't see the difference between 'both sharp' and 'one sharp and one natural'.

As for the scope of accidentals: all octaves, or just the actual one: I hope that a future 'correction' (I don't need it) will ensure backwards compatibility!
I still find it strange. A key signature applies to all octaves; incidentals do not? But I accept the authority of those who have posted earlier.

Re: Possible bug report - hanging tie from accidental?

Reply #8 – 2004-12-30 10:26 am

For this behaviour to be correct you would have to insert a natural sign to indicate that there are two different pitches.

Code: [Select · Download]

!NoteWorthyComposerClip(2.0,Single)
|Clef|Type:Treble
|Chord|Dur:Half|Pos:#1|Opts:Stem=Down|Dur2:Half|Pos2:n1
|Chord|Dur:Half|Pos:n1|Opts:Stem=Down|Dur2:Half|Pos2:#1
!NoteWorthyComposerClip-End

As notated without the natural sign the playback is simply incorrect.

(BTW if the notational behaviour is what you'd expect then toggling the sharp key (9) on the chord ought to toggle each note independently, but in fact it makes them both natural.)

For an invaluable reference do get a copy of Alfred's Essential Dictionary of Music Notation ($9.95) which includes a comprehensive discussion of the application of accidentals. although interestingly it is silent on the correct treatment of the minor second chord we are discussing. In a Schubert piece ABRSM prints it as separated notes each with its own accidental. Certainly the second chord in my example could be construed as an old fashioned cancelled double sharp.

Re: Possible bug report - hanging tie from accidental?

Reply #9 – 2004-12-30 12:33 pm

Is this not an augmented unison rather than a minor second?

Re: Possible bug report - hanging tie from accidental?

Reply #10 – 2004-12-31 09:13 pm

Noteworthy has got to the stage of being a serious program for presentation. Its output is going to fall into fussier and fussier hands. The rules of music theory are well defined: the Asociated Board of the Royal Schools of Music publishes the AB series. Notation that departs from the AB standard will be severly criticised throughout most of the world. Jazz notation I can't speak about.

Key signatures apply thoughout all octaves until a signature change is made by cancelling the previous and entering the new.

Accidentals affect only the note they are attached to and for any other occurence of the same note from that point onwards for that bar. They cease at the next bar line unless the note is tied, when it ceases similarly at the next bar line. For the immediately following bar a courtesy reminder accidental, showing the intended note from the key signature may be inserted, but is not obligatory. A courtesy accidental should only be inserted if the note occurs on the same line or space on the same stave. If used, only one occurence appears. Too many accidentals are confusing.

It is perfectly possible to have in the same bar, even on the same note, in different parts, the note as per the key signature and others with what otherwise woukd be the same pitch with accidentals attached. Likewise this can happen in different octaves. The accidentals often show the composers harmonic intentions as to modulations or can be passing notes; again significant harmonically. Such significance is of little concern for midi output but tells a performer about the music's structure and intentions.

Noteworthy only needs the basic key signatures and the ablity to change them as it has. Accidentals should be user driven.

Re: Possible bug report - hanging tie from accidental?

Reply #11 – 2005-01-03 08:08 pm

Kevin's explanation of the rule for accidentals still leaves me a little confused.

I just came across this in the Help menu for the Find Command:

Unassigned Octave Accidental: When an accidental is assigned to a note in one octave, notes of the same pitch in that bar that appear in different octaves should have an accidental assigned to them as well, in order to avoid confusion...

I sometimes think that NWC documentation is a little too concise to be helpful for novices. For instance, looking up Notes Menu Commands for accidentals, the narrative is just "This command toggles the running ___ accidental parameter for use during note entry and for selected notes. If it is selected when a note or chord member is added, the resulting note on the staff will included a flat sign in front of it." There's nothing in that comment to indicate whether or not the accidental will carry through to remaining notes in the bar (although the author may think it is obvious) nor is there anything to indicate whether it will or won't affect different octaves.

There was some discussion about proper notation during the initial (pre-public) betatest, and I believe Noteworthy chose one particular reference source (perhaps the Alfred Essential Dictionary of Music Notation? I hope that the two resources are not in conflict, although it may be that practices vary from nation to nation.

Re: Possible bug report - hanging tie from accidental?

Reply #12 – 2005-01-03 09:07 pm

There's no difference between countries. Alfred (US) and ABRSM (UK) (AB Guide to Music Theory) are explicit that the accidental only applies to the staff position on which it lies, and I've never seen any exceptions in published continental music.

NW's explanations are not helpful because they are trying to explain incorrect behaviour.

If you want an example which is ludicrously wrong then look at this:

Code: [Select · Download]

!NoteWorthyComposerClip(2.0,Single)
|Clef|Type:Treble
|Chord|Dur:4th|Pos:n-6,#1
|Note|Dur:4th|Pos:-6
!NoteWorthyComposerClip-End

Re: Possible bug report - hanging tie from accidental?

Reply #13 – 2005-01-04 02:11 am

Unfortunately, I'm more confused than before.

As an aside to Kevin, he writes "Jazz notation I can't speak about." Unfortunately the music I'm working with is jazz.

Anyway, I think NWC logic is that the accidental affects all notes of the same nominal pitch that follow the accidental, within the bar, unless cancelled.

Peter is saying the accidental only affects notes at the same vertical position.

I'm not sure what Kevin is saying, but I think he's agreeing with NWC.

I've tried searching the web, and came across comments about jazz accidentals that go both ways:

I came accross to musicians who, incredibly, did not know that accidentals apply ONLY to the notes in the SAME LINE OR SPACE, and are effective ONLY while they are within the bar. " http://www.justjazz.com/discussion-hypermail/00001807.htm

and

"I was taught an accidental affects that note regardless of in which octave that note later appears (same measure of course). If this is not so, my Simandl books have gross misprintings throughout." http://www.justjazz.com/discussion-hypermail/00001805.htm

I give up!!! Since this is the first time I've encountered an accidental on a grace note that might or might not affect a normal note in a different octave in the same bar in 2 years of active score copying, I don't imagine it will haunt me forever.

Re: Possible bug report - hanging tie from accidental?

Reply #14 – 2005-01-04 04:01 am

David, I agree with Peter. The accidental is solely for the note against which it actually placed. There are no implied accidentals for other octaves. The pitch change caused by the accidental is only for one frequency. An accidental sharp on middle C (256Hz) raises the pitch of it a semitone from the 256Hz; it has no affect on the C's in any other octave. The one at 128Hz still has 128Hz and the one at 512Hz, likewise. This may seem strange, but the presence of, say, a C#, does not preclude the use of a Cnatural simultaneously. A composer
may choose the crunchy sound.

The only implied accidental, if it can be called that, is the continuation of the changed pitch till the end of the or the end of the next bar if the note is tied over the barline.

Re: Possible bug report - hanging tie from accidental?

Reply #15 – 2005-01-04 06:59 am

Here is the definitive from the ABRSM.

"During the course of a piece of music other sharps or flats, not included inthe key signature, may sometimes be added to individual notes. Futher a sharp or flat in the key signature may be cancelled by the use of a natural. .....

"Once an accidental has appeared in a bar, it remains in force until the end of the bar, hence- "

Code: [Select · Download]

!NoteWorthyComposerClip(2.0,Single)
|Clef|Type:Treble
|Key|Signature:F#
|TimeSig|Signature:3/4
|Note|Dur:4th|Pos:5
|Note|Dur:8th|Pos:-2|Opts:Stem=Up,Beam=First
|Text|Text:"This"|Font:StaffItalic|Pos:-9
|Note|Dur:8th|Pos:-1|Opts:Stem=Up,Beam=End
|Note|Dur:8th|Pos:0|Opts:Stem=Down,Beam=First
|Note|Dur:8th|Pos:1|Opts:Stem=Down,Beam=End
|Bar
|Note|Dur:16th|Pos:2|Opts:Stem=Down,Beam=First
|Note|Dur:16th|Pos:#1|Opts:Stem=Down,Beam
|Note|Dur:16th|Pos:2|Opts:Stem=Down,Beam
|Note|Dur:16th|Pos:1|Opts:Stem=Down,Beam=End
|Note|Dur:8th|Pos:3
|Note|Dur:8th|Pos:1
|Bar
|Note|Dur:4th|Pos:2
|Bar|Style:Double
|Note|Dur:4th|Pos:5
|Note|Dur:8th|Pos:-2|Opts:Stem=Up,Beam=First
|Text|Text:"Not this"|Font:StaffItalic|Pos:-9
|Note|Dur:8th|Pos:-1|Opts:Stem=Up,Beam=End
|Note|Dur:8th|Pos:0|Opts:Stem=Down,Beam=First
|Note|Dur:8th|Pos:1|Opts:Stem=Down,Beam=End
|Bar
|Note|Dur:16th|Pos:2|Opts:Stem=Down,Beam=First
|Note|Dur:16th|Pos:#1|Opts:Stem=Down,Beam
|Note|Dur:16th|Pos:2|Opts:Stem=Down,Beam
|Note|Dur:16th|Pos:#1|Opts:Stem=Down,Beam=End
|Note|Dur:8th|Pos:3|Opts:Stem=Down,Beam=First
|Note|Dur:8th|Pos:#1|Opts:Stem=Down,Beam=End
|Bar
|Note|Dur:4th|Pos:2
|Bar|Style:Double
|Text|Text:"Ties - correct"|Font:StaffItalic|Pos:-8
|Note|Dur:4th|Pos:#-3^
|Bar
|Note|Dur:4th|Pos:-3
|Rest|Dur:4th
|Bar
|Rest|Dur:4th
|Rest|Dur:4th
|Text|Text:"wrong"|Font:StaffItalic|Pos:-9
|Note|Dur:4th|Pos:#-3^
|Bar
|Note|Dur:4th|Pos:#-3
|Rest|Dur:4th
|Text|Text:"But if used further"|Font:StaffItalic|Pos:-8
|Bar|Style:Double
|TimeSig|Signature:4/4
|Note|Dur:4th|Pos:1
|Note|Dur:4th|Pos:-4
|Note|Dur:4th|Pos:-3
|Note|Dur:4th|Pos:#-3^
|Bar
|Note|Dur:4th|Pos:-3
|Note|Dur:4th|Pos:-1
|Note|Dur:4th|Pos:-2
|Note|Dur:4th|Pos:#-3
|Bar|Style:SectionClose
|Clef|Type:Treble
|Key|Signature:Bb
|TimeSig|Signature:4/4
|Note|Dur:4th|Pos:-2
|Note|Dur:4th|Pos:-4
|Note|Dur:4th|Pos:-5
|Note|Dur:4th|Pos:-2
|Bar
|Note|Dur:8th|Pos:-6|Opts:Stem=Up,Beam=First
|Note|Dur:8th|Pos:n-7|Opts:Stem=Up,Beam=End
|Note|Dur:Half|Pos:-6
|Note|Dur:8th|Pos:-1|Opts:Stem=Up,Beam=First
|Note|Dur:8th|Pos:n0|Opts:Stem=Up,Beam=End
|Bar
|Note|Dur:4th|Pos:1
|Text|Text:"Bflat"|Font:StaffItalic|Pos:-10
|Note|Dur:4th|Pos:0
|Note|Dur:4th|Pos:-1
|Note|Dur:4th|Pos:-2
|Bar
|Note|Dur:Whole|Pos:-1
!NoteWorthyComposerClip-End

I got it wrong too for the ties!
The clip is copied directly from the guide.

As to the grace notes, it is fairly common to find these with accidentals in some music and the rules as above are applied. There are no references to these being treated differently in the ABRSM guide. It would be very confusing to performers if they were.

Re: Possible bug report - hanging tie from accidental?

Reply #16 – 2005-01-04 04:24 pm

I gather your interpretation, Kevin, is that "!i(Futher (sic)a sharp or flat in the key signature may be cancelled by the use of a natural. ..... " means the accidental affects all octaves.

That's more or less the opinion of my daughter and her husband, too.

Yet measure 14 of your example seems to contradict this.

Back to Peter? (His notation clip was a really good example of the possible problem).

Re: Possible bug report - hanging tie from accidental?

Reply #17 – 2005-01-04 05:23 pm

A natural sign inside a key signature actually changes the key, so yes it does affect all octaves. A natural on a note would only affect subsequent notes at that particular octave.

The treatment of tied notes is interesting. NWC insists that the incorrect notation is necessary (although it prints it correctly). The notationally correct notation of course is incorrect inside NWC and results in hanging notes!

Tied notes over a bar-line does should not have an accidental, but the first subsequent free note at that pitch does need its own specific accidental.

Re: Possible bug report - hanging tie from accidental?

Reply #18 – 2005-01-04 11:14 pm

I agree with Peter. This is exactly what the ABRSM has in its guides.

Re: Possible bug report - hanging tie from accidental?

Reply #19 – 2005-01-05 09:20 pm

There may be som confusion about key signature changes and accidentals. Here is what the ABRSM sya:

"The key signature is repeated at the beginning of every line. If it has to be changed during the course of a piece, all that is needed is to write the new key signature after a double bar line."

"It used to be the practice to cancel the old key signature first with naturals, but nowadays naturals are only used when no sharps or flats follow."

"A clef may be changed at any point in a line of music , but when it occurs bewteen bars it is placed before the bar line. (The key signature is not repeated) Changes of time signature always come after the bar line."

"All changes of clef, time signature, and key signature, which apply to the start of a new line, should also be shown at the end of the previous line."

Re: Possible bug report - hanging tie from accidental?

Reply #20 – 2005-01-06 02:04 am

Had fun with the Accidental question at the pub after band last night. Two music teachers are convinced the accidental affects all octaves within the bar. One said said you would never write an interval of an augmented octave, and suggested that an accidental wouldn't affect a different clef.

I really have no opinion, I'm at a point where I'm amused rather than concerned...

Re: Possible bug report - hanging tie from accidental?

Reply #21 – 2005-01-06 06:59 am

My first reply is not so lonely anymore. Thanks David.

Re: Possible bug report - hanging tie from accidental?

Reply #22 – 2005-01-06 08:55 am

Amused - OK

not concerned - for a notation/sequencer program to have an obvious (I'll go for authoritative reference over unsubstantiated opinion every time) fault is a matter for concern.

David, your music teachers are talking nonsense, and you know it. Augmented octaves happen surprisingly frequently, and as mentioned above Schubert actually employs an augmented unison on occasion!

Re: Possible bug report - hanging tie from accidental?

Reply #23 – 2005-01-07 05:00 am

The truth, Peter, is that most of my music theory was learned in high school band and music appreciation classes +/- 40 years ago, and in a few clarinet lessons - if it wasn't in C.Paul Herforth's (sp?) A Tune A Day for Clarinet I and II, then I didn't learn it.

It did make for an interesting debate last night, certainly I found it hard to swallow the two staff idea, but then that person plays a wind instrument rather than piano.

However, I usually defer to those who appear to know more about any subject than me. I'm a rank amateur in music. Your comments indicate you know the theory better than I do, but I don't have the background to argue with people who spent 30 or 40 years teaching music. It was an interesting and lively debate, with perhaps a total of 8 or 9 band members participating as they sipped.

Re: Possible bug report - hanging tie from accidental?

Reply #24 – 2005-01-07 05:50 am

BTW, I agree with the premise - if the program has a feature based on incorrect theory, then it should be fixed. I'm sure Eric will have this in his "to check" list by now, and he'll either come back with a quote from his explicit reference source or agree to change the bug.

I did find it the genesis of this thread annoying. Grace notes (the crushed note type) in transcriptions of jazz solos are inexact representations at best, and are really ornaments or an attempt to depict someone's playing style. I more or less think that if they're missed by someone using the original solo as a basis for his own, it's no big deal.

This incident was in a transcription of a Johnny Hodges sax solo, complete with note bends, glisses, pentuplets and assorted other magic. This phrase was built on a Bb major chord. The grace note was an ornament, one of two quick passing notes Johnny played leading into an 8th note Db. However, the lower F was sustained - it was the last 8th note of the bar and was tied to a quarter in the next one.

The accompaniment was a Bb major chord too. Fb would be a flatted fifth, but there are no flatted fifth chords anywhere in the chart.

I don't think it was Hodges' intention to change the chord structure in this blues - he was not in the habit of landing on wrong notes.

I'm convinced the intention was to play F natural on the low note. The professionally produced printed score did not show an accidental natural on the low F.

Transposed, the low F would be a concert Db. The chord in the piano accompaniment was Db major at this [abbr=Hope it's not too obvious that my chord theory isn't so hot!]point.[/abbr]

Having said all this, I think I'm really agreeing with you, Peter.