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Topic: Measures with Chords of mixed duration (Read 6562 times) previous topic - next topic

Measures with Chords of mixed duration

Hi All!

I was going along nicely, entering a delightful S.A. version of Bach's "We Hasten to Thee" into NWC, when I ran into snag. No big deal, as I am only keying in the score so I can use the playback to practice with.

I improvised, but it seems that there should be a way to enter this one measure without using layering (I'd hate to have to use a layered staff just for one measure!).

I have entered many mixed duration chords before without trouble, but could not enter the last beat of this measure so that it is counted correctly by NWC. Here it is:

(Treble clef)(4/4 time)

Beats 1 and 2 are just plain quarter-note chords

Beat three: (Stem-up) Quarter-note high 'E' flat (e.g. two E's above middle-C). (Stem-down) Dotted-quarter-note 'A', dotted-quarter-note 'F#'.

Beat four: (Stem-up) Quarter-note high 'D'.
Beat four 1/2: (stem-down) Eighth-note 'A', eighth-note 'F#'.

So in other words, beat three consists of a quarter note combined with a 2-note-chord of dotted quarters. Beat four has the "other" quarter note that goes with beat three's quarter note. Beat four 1/2 chord finishes the measure as far as the dotted-quarter-note chord is concerned.

You have to enter this in to NWC in order to see it, I think. I can post an example on the newsgroup if need be.

Does anyone know how to get beats four, and four 1/2, into the measure on one staff and counted correctly? NWC lets me enter it all in, of course, but then the measure count is off.

As I said, no big deal, I'm only using the playback for practice, but I thought there ought to be a way to do this without having to use the layering feature.

Any thoughts? Thanks.

Sue

Re: Measures with Chords of mixed duration

Reply #2 –
Hmm, I guess I was not clear, as I do not see anything resembling my intended question in Msg 680 or 206. Msg 61 does mention that NWC will take only *one* of the note duration paths and attempt to resolve the measure. I guess that would cause me to infer that NWC would be unhappy with the "other" note duration path?

Just for clarity, I am going to go over to the Newsgroup in a moment and post a song fragment there. Perhaps that would be clearer than my attempt to describle the problem.

Thanks again for any and all help.

Sue

Re: Measures with Chords of mixed duration

Reply #3 –
I've replied to this on the newsgroup, but thought it important enough to repeat here.

When looking at a chord consisting of different durations, NWC takes the shortest duration as the time value for that chord. Makes sense, since that way the longer values can continue to sound after the "alotted" time has elapsed.

Solution in your case: follow the chorded quarter and dotted quarters with a eighth rest, with the quarter "chorded" on top of it. Now the time adds up right.

Fred

Re: Measures with Chords of mixed duration

Reply #5 –
Hi All,

I found out why MSG 680 wasn't of any use to me -- my browser takes me to Reply #7 (marsu) instead of NWC support's reply #10. Not sure why that is. I counted down to reply 10 manually and found it that way.

Many thanks to all, here and on the newsgroup. Fred, your GIF file solution (on the newsgroup) is interesting. Yes, I see that it would play back correctly, which was all I was after in this instance, but if that was a printed score wouldn't it actually confuse the accompanist? I'd hate to notate this as such and then forget about it, and print it out for someone!

Lastly, after 12 pages of score I was reluctant to introduce layering just for this one measure. NWC Support: Is there a way to quickly create a blank staff full of rests and measure bars, and other flow direction, etc. symbols as contained in another staff? I know, copy/paste, but perhaps this is one for the wish list -- a "copy staff" function that quickly copies an entire staff except notes, and instead puts rests in the measures. Would that be of any use to anyone?

Thanks again for all the help. What a great forum this is!

Sue

Re: Measures with Chords of mixed duration

Reply #6 –
Hi Sue,

Glad you're sorted out now.

I understand your wish BUT I think you'll find that for layering generally you do not want to convert the notes to rests. For the majority of the measures, you need the two layered staffs to be exactly the same so that you can layer one over the other without being able to spot the difference and only in one or two measures does there need to be a change.

Richard

Re: Measures with Chords of mixed duration

Reply #7 –
Sue,

Pianists are used to seeing parts split into separate voices, so probably wouldn't have any trouble with the "extra" rest. That being said, it's true that the times on the two voices don't add up correctly, so for authenticity the tied approach suggested by Grant on the newsgroup would perhaps be preferred, though it's not as visually appealing.

Fred

Re: Measures with Chords of mixed duration

Reply #8 –
Unfortunately, from experience, the NoteWorthy solution outlined above, is the only solution that works well.

There are occasions where you have doubled up the instrument on a layered staff and because that instrument is not very loud in comparison to other General MIDI instruments, you leave it sounding and don't bother to go through this routine.

The only problem with this is that when you come to play the piece on another PC with a different sound card, the volume is then all wrong.

I've found that my greatest problem with PC music (I nearly said NoteWorthy but it's not a NoteWorthy problem) is the different standards of volume for any specified General MIDI
instrument (as others will testify from downloading some of my pieces from the Scripto). My machine seems to have a completely different idea of dynamics to the machines belonging to other ONCUers.

Richard

Re: Measures with Chords of mixed duration

Reply #9 –
Thanks Richard for the clarification on layering... I guess I was in "wonderland" when I wrote that! I was of course thinking that rests would overlay the other staff correctly (which of course they won't, as you've pointed out), and therefore only the needed notes should be notated.

Thanks Fred, yes I think Grant's idea would be "more correct" even though visually not as nice.

This layering discussion brings up a different question to me, though: If you *do* have two identical staves, save for a measure or two, should you assign them both to the same midi channel? Is there a way (besides inserting a variety of midi commands into the score) to keep the two from sounding twice as loud while they are in unison, but still sound correctly when the "time comes" for the needed measures to be blended? How does an exported MIDI file look when you do this sort of layering, where the staves are identical save a few measures?

This is all "just wondering" on my part, I really have no specific need for any of this, but I'm curious. Anyone's thoughts?

Sue

Re: Measures with Chords of mixed duration

Reply #10 –
Your best bet is as follows:

Create a second, layered staff that mirrors the first in all but the one or two measures. Mute this staff, and assign it an unused MIDI channel (16 could be a plausible choice). Make this staff visible in Page Setup.

Create a third staff that uses whole rests until the key measure in question. Assign it the same MIDI channel as the original staff, but hide in in Page Setup.

This is not the easiest solution, but it may work for you.

Re: Measures with Chords of mixed duration

Reply #11 –
(I know this is a bit old, but I'm just getting back to the net :-/
There is a solution not mentioned here (it maybe the Grant's one on the news, but still no access to them; or is it feasible with a http page somewhere???) for your quarter+dottedquarter followed by quarter+eighth.
Simply replace the dot by its value, i.e. do a full chord with 3 quarters, the two that should be dotted being tied; then enter the 2nd beat as a chord with quarter+2ieghths, beamed (or not) to the the last eights.
Note that this kind of notation is often used in multi-voice scores where different rythmic schemes appears simultaneously, making a "vertical" reading easier.

HTH,
        MAD