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Topic: Ties (Read 6512 times) previous topic - next topic

Ties

Piano players:
If piano is the instrument and I tie (e.g.) two whole notes in NWC the first note plinks and the second is never heard. Is this how you piano folk folk use ties? ((if so silence can be more directly implemented)) Wind instrument does a "nomal" tie with a steady two whole note blow. A glitch or failure to read the directions?

Re: Ties

Reply #1 –
When you play a piano, the key strikes the string, and the damping felt is raised. It stays raised until you release the key, at which time the note is muffled.
So it is not silence, but the continued decay of the note which is being directed for with a tie.
So a piano tie is "played" the same way as a wind instrument tie, it's just that the instruments generate sounds in completely different fashions, one through a single percussion, the other through continued excitation.

Andrew

Re: Ties

Reply #2 –
Thanks for the nice clear explanation.
The word plink was deliberately chosen though.
General midi patch 001, acoustic grand piano, Sound Blaster AWE 32, two tied whole notes in 4/4 d=70 are giving me on pitch sound (plink, fade) for about 1 beat and high resonances (fading) for about another beat then about six beats of silence.
(This is not the way I hear whole notes on real pianos, nice to now know the mechanics.)
Since posting, I've tried this in Finale and gotten the same results so NWC, if guilty, has co-conspirators.
Questions:
Is what I describe what real piano players get on real pianos?
Is what I describe the correct(normal) midi/NWC result?
If no and no, what card/synth? FM or wavetable? What sound font?
Do sound font pianos have felts effects built in? (Would think fades/stops would be left to midi commands.)

Re: Ties

Reply #3 –
>>General midi patch 001, acoustic grand piano, Sound Blaster AWE 32, two tied whole notes in 4/4 d=70 are giving me on pitch sound (plink, fade) for about 1 beat and high resonances (fading) for about another beat then about six beats of silence. (This is not the way I hear whole notes on real pianos, nice to now know the mechanics.)<<

When I tried this (not sure what d=70 was I presumed quarter note=70), I got about 3 beats at mp, and about 6 at fff.

>>Questions:
>>Is what I describe what real piano players get on real pianos?<<

Not the right time of night for me to test this question, I'm afraid. I _expect_ we get a longer decay on a real piano, as the decay on even an AWE device will be implemented with a (very cleanly) looped sample and a volume envelope.
You can probably even tweak this envelope using Vienna. (GOOD LUCK!)

>>Is what I describe the correct(normal) midi/NWC result?<<

I expect so.

>>If no and no, what card/synth? FM or wavetable? What sound font?<<

I think you've got it. You may want to try some other sound fonts (hunt around for "soundfont" and piano, there are some free ones around, including several at Creative).
Forget FM, it'll never do pianos better than a sample. NEVER.

>>Do sound font pianos have felts effects built in? (Would think fades/stops would be left to midi commands.)<<

You don't actually hear the felts. Most midi cards won't have a note-up sound. My old Ensoniq EPS used to have the thunk of a harpsichord quill returning, but it actually got annoying after a while. I think they'd made it too loud.

Sounds like your main issue here is you don't think your AWE 32 piano sounds right. Hunt around for some other pianos. How much memory on your card? You'll need 4M for some of the larger soundfonts!

Regards,

Andrew

Re: Ties

Reply #4 –
By definition, two notes tied together result in only one audible, continuous note played by the performer (whether that performer is actually software or a live person). If you want to actually hear the sound attack on the second note, perhaps you should be using a slur rather than a tie.

Re: Ties

Reply #5 –
Thanks, Andrew, right on point as usual.
Curiously, just as I was reading you, the background noise from the tube was a piano doing a slow and melodic piece which went to a sustained left hand chord that held for seconds--at least 3 full measures while the right hand melodied. So something is rotten with both our "virtual pianos" and mine is worse than yours.
For Support, no, I really am just looking to get a nice long slow fade on my virtual piano as i just heard from a real piano. Pedal does not seem to affect this.
The piece in question is "My Heart Will Go On" from the big sinking ship movie. The sheet music is for piano/voice/guitar (desired end result was piano/alto sax for play along). The piano plinks don't make it as accompanyment to such a slow melodic piece. So bad, I've put a flute on the piano right and a basson may follow for the left.
BTW if anyone wants to play with what I've got (and send back an improved version), just holler.

Re: Ties

Reply #6 –
Some partial answers specifically applicable to SoundBlaster AWE 32(AWE 64 probably?). Open AWE Control Panel. Select the Playback tab.
Playback bank:000-General MIDI;
Instrument:000-Piano 1;
MIDI controllers: {here the fun starts} click the arrow, make a choice of controller
Controller value: {here the fun is} pull the switch back and forth to get a lot(right) or a little(left) of the selected controller. This appears to set a base value of the effect for a note it further seems that the effect can be turned off but not set higher or turned on by midi/NWC playback. Play with controller settings click a note, play, click, find behavior that sounds right to you.
Currently I like:
Piano 1 at Modulator Wheel 020; Main volume 127; Pan Position 64; Expression 127; Sustain Pedal 127; Reverb Depth 127; Chorus Depth 6
The other instruments were not hurt to my tin ear.
Vienna SoundFont Studio also has hold and sustain and decay controls which effect note play at the SoundFont Studio keyboard but have little effect on midi/NWC playback (probably because AWE 32 Control Panel settings take precedence.
A rant :)
BTW, it appears most of the memory the soundbank uses is kinda wasted. The sample is an actual note sounded by the instrument and is saved from inception to 2000 to 3000 time units (milliseconds?). Of the total sample, typically sone 50 time units late in the sample is looped and played with amplifiers and filters shaping a sound envelope. So as 50 is to 2500 so useful storage seems to be to waste. And all that real attack, decay, hold sustain data is approximated instead of played. Sound FONT is correct terminology.

Re: Ties

Reply #7 –
The length of sustain of a piano patch will vary with the synthesizer or the sound card, in my experience.