Hidden note display anomaly in Preview 1x

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Hidden note display anomaly in Preview 1x

2005-12-16 07:59 am

If I add XNoteSpace to a Visibility:Never note it shifts the note in my work view, but not in print preview.
This has ramifications when I try to attach things to hidden notes.

Put each clip on its own staff. Note the difference in bar 2

Code: [Select · Download]

!NoteWorthyComposerClip(2.0,Single)
|Note|Dur:64th|Pos:0z|Opts:Stem=Down,StemLength=0,Beam=First,XNoteSpace=1
|Note|Dur:64th|Pos:0|Opts:Stem=Down,Beam=End,XNoteSpace=1
|Bar
|Note|Dur:64th|Pos:0|Opts:Stem=Down,Beam=First,XNoteSpace=1|Visibility:Never
|Note|Dur:64th|Pos:0|Opts:Stem=Down,Beam=End,XNoteSpace=1
|Bar
|Note|Dur:64th|Pos:0|Opts:Stem=Down,Beam=First,XNoteSpace=1
|Note|Dur:64th|Pos:0|Opts:Stem=Down,Beam=End,XNoteSpace=1
|Bar
!NoteWorthyComposerClip-End

Code: [Select · Download]

!NoteWorthyComposerClip(2.0,Single)
|Note|Dur:64th|Pos:-1|Opts:Stem=Up,Beam=First
|Note|Dur:64th|Pos:-1|Opts:Stem=Up,Beam=End
|Bar
|Note|Dur:64th|Pos:-1|Opts:Stem=Up,Beam=First
|Note|Dur:64th|Pos:-1|Opts:Stem=Up,Beam=End
|Bar
|Note|Dur:64th|Pos:-1|Opts:Stem=Up,Beam=First
|Note|Dur:64th|Pos:-1|Opts:Stem=Up,Beam=End
|Bar
!NoteWorthyComposerClip-End

Re: Hidden note display anomaly in Preview 1x

Reply #1 – 2005-12-16 04:34 pm

It's an interesting problem, but I don't think it needs to be fixed. When would you need to put an x-head on an invisible note?

Re: Hidden note display anomaly in Preview 1x

Reply #2 – 2005-12-16 08:24 pm

There are no x-heads in my clips.

One of the purposes of XNoteSpace is to align stems of notes sounding together but with opposing stem direction.

An invisible note at the beginning of a beam determines where the beam starts. In order to use beams from one staff and notes from another, it is important that XNoteSpace not be ignored on invisible notes.

It would be like muting all invisible notes and saying "Well, if you can't see it, why would you want to hear it?"

It is also inconsistent.

Patient: It hurts when I do this.
Doctor: Then don't do that.

Re: Hidden note display anomaly in Preview 1x

Reply #3 – 2005-12-17 05:53 am

Hi Rick

Your approaches are interesting and I'm not taking shots at your ideas. I'm a little careless with my messages - that comes from glancing at the forum for a few minutes before going to work, so being in a hurry. Seeing one thing in the copied clip but failing to realize you weren't describing one of the notes in the clip when you used "XNoteSpace."

Could you clarify what you mean by XNoteSpace please?

David

Re: Hidden note display anomaly in Preview 1x

Reply #4 – 2005-12-17 02:17 pm

I am not sure... but in my font editor, I notice that the cursor width for an X head is slightly less than the cursor width for a normal (oval) head. That is not surprising. Presumably, NWC2 needs to take this into account when aligning neaby objects such as stems.

Re: Hidden note display anomaly in Preview 1x

Reply #5 – 2005-12-17 04:43 pm

Do wake up in class ;-)

Extra Note Spacing.

I can't really see this as a problem since an invisible note can't really be aid to have spacing since it doesn't take up any room in the first place. I 'm not sure what you're trying to achieve but there are ways round it.

Re: Hidden note display anomaly in Preview 1x

Reply #6 – 2005-12-18 11:27 pm

Peter, Rick seems to have found a genuine discrepancy between the ordinary working view, and the print preview window. Adding extra note spacing causes a visual change in the editing window, but not in the preview window. I checked this with the clips Rick provided. It doesn't matter whether you add 1, 2 or 3 extra spaces - the preview window stays the same.

I can see that some people might think the discrepancy is a problem.

I read from your post that you're suggesting that the behaviour in the preview window is correct, and that the behaviour in the editing window is not. I'm can accept this definition here, even if I might like the editing window behaviour to be correct.

So what ways around the problem are there for Rick? Adding preserved-width text consisting just of spaces doesn't appear to work. I suspect trying very, very short invisible rests might do it, provided the note durations are relatively longer. Rick has provided very short notes in his clips, so this method won't work here.

Re: Hidden note display anomaly in Preview 1x

Reply #7 – 2005-12-19 03:22 am

Layer these two clips. The 2nd pair of eighth notes is the problem. The third pair is the workaround, but there is too much space between the note heads.

Code: [Select · Download]

!NoteWorthyComposerClip(2.0,Single)
|Note|Dur:8th|Pos:9|Opts:Stem=Down,Beam=First
|Note|Dur:8th|Pos:6|Opts:Stem=Down,Beam=End,NoLegerLines,Muted|Visibility:Never
|Note|Dur:8th|Pos:6|Opts:Stem=Down,Beam=First,XNoteSpace=1,NoLegerLines,Muted|Visibility:Never
|Note|Dur:8th|Pos:9|Opts:Stem=Down,Beam=End
|Note|Dur:8th|Pos:6z|Opts:Stem=Down,StemLength=0,Beam=First,XNoteSpace=1,NoLegerLines,Muted
|Note|Dur:8th|Pos:9|Opts:Stem=Down,Beam=End
!NoteWorthyComposerClip-End

Code: [Select · Download]

!NoteWorthyComposerClip(2.0,Single)
|Note|Dur:8th|Pos:-6|Opts:Stem=Up,Beam=First,XAccSpace=1,NoLegerLines,Muted|Visibility:Never
|Note|Dur:8th|Pos:-9|Opts:Stem=Up,Beam=End
|Note|Dur:8th|Pos:-9|Opts:Stem=Up,Beam=First
|Note|Dur:8th|Pos:-6|Opts:Stem=Up,Beam=End,XAccSpace=1,NoLegerLines,Muted|Visibility:Never
|Note|Dur:8th|Pos:-9|Opts:Stem=Up,Beam=First
|Note|Dur:8th|Pos:-6|Opts:Stem=Up,Beam=End,XAccSpace=1,NoLegerLines,Muted|Visibility:Never
!NoteWorthyComposerClip-End

Re: Hidden note display anomaly in Preview 1x

Reply #8 – 2005-12-19 06:45 pm

Ah, now that my reflex reaction to "X note" has gone away, I see the point (I woke up). Indeed, it does seem to be the case that there is a discrepancy between the editor view and print preview. Rick G is correct.

In general, there are differences between text and notation alignments, in editor versus print preview. But I generally expect that notation-to-notation alignments should be the same.

I "print" directly do PDF using PDFCreator printer driver, so I don't think that it's a printer driver bug.

Re: Hidden note display anomaly in Preview 1x

Reply #9 – 2005-12-30 11:44 pm

...and to add to the general confusion, if consideration to the invisible note head should not be taken by NWC when it calculates note spacing, why then, does it consider the spacing for a note with no head?

As I see it, the two types of notes (the one with an invisible head, and the one without a head altogether) should be treated the same by NWC.

Re: Hidden note display anomaly in Preview 1x

Reply #10 – 2005-12-31 12:35 am

Pär: Not confusing to me. NWC2 calls it a blank space notehead, not an invisible notehead

You might also notice that a "C" key signature takes up space unless you set it to Visibility:Never

I have since found a number of things that display differently in the Editor than in the Preview. IMHO, the clips I posted above display correctly in the Preview window (and when printed)

Re: Hidden note display anomaly in Preview 1x

Reply #11 – 2005-12-31 12:44 am

G'day Pär,
I must disagree with you on this one - one of the most useful aspects of headless notes is that you can supply your own heads as text.

As an example, Robert A. has created a set of scripts that allows placement of round noteheads (specific request) and for heads containing letters (note names - another special request).

If headless notes were treated as being non existent for note spacing for printing purposes then this functionality would break.

Incidently, I've just notated a transcription of the Overture to William Tell [here on the scripto] where I've used headless, invisible notes to position a slur, using extra note space, and it worked perfectly. If the extra note spacing had not worked, the slur would not have positioned correctly. The relevant bars are in the clips below.

Lawrie

Staff 1 (to be layered with staff 2):

Code: [Select · Download]

!NoteWorthyComposerClip(2.0,Single)
|Clef|Type:Treble
|Key|Signature:F#
|Tempo|Base:Eighth|Tempo:60|Pos:16
|TimeSig|Signature:3/8
|Dynamic|Style:p|Pos:-12|Justify:Right
|Rest|Dur:32nd|Opts:Stem=Up,VertOffset=6
|Text|Text:"poco"|Font:StaffItalic|Pos:-15|Placement:AtNextNote
|Note|Dur:32nd,Staccato|Pos:-2|Opts:Stem=Up,Beam=First,ArticulationsOnStem
|Note|Dur:32nd,Staccato|Pos:-5|Opts:Stem=Up,Beam,ArticulationsOnStem
|TempoVariance|Style:Accelerando|Pos:-15
|Note|Dur:32nd,Staccato|Pos:-2|Opts:Stem=Up,Beam,ArticulationsOnStem
|Note|Dur:32nd,Staccato|Pos:0|Opts:Stem=Up,Beam,ArticulationsOnStem
|Note|Dur:32nd,Staccato|Pos:2|Opts:Stem=Up,Beam=End,ArticulationsOnStem
|Note|Dur:4th|Pos:5^|Opts:Stem=Up,Slur=Upward,ArticulationsOnStem,Tie=Upward
|Note|Dur:8th|Pos:-7|Opts:Muted
|Bar
|Note|Dur:32nd,Staccato|Pos:5|Opts:Stem=Up,Slur=Upward,Beam=First,ArticulationsOnStem,Tie=Upward
|Note|Dur:32nd,Staccato|Pos:-5|Opts:Stem=Up,Beam,ArticulationsOnStem
|Note|Dur:32nd,Staccato|Pos:-2|Opts:Stem=Up,Beam,ArticulationsOnStem
|Note|Dur:32nd,Staccato|Pos:0|Opts:Stem=Up,Beam,ArticulationsOnStem
|Note|Dur:32nd,Staccato|Pos:2|Opts:Stem=Up,Beam,ArticulationsOnStem
|Note|Dur:32nd,Staccato|Pos:5|Opts:Stem=Up,Beam=End,ArticulationsOnStem
|Note|Dur:4th|Pos:7^|Opts:Stem=Up,ArticulationsOnStem,Tie=Upward
|Note|Dur:8th|Pos:-7|Opts:Muted
|Bar
|Note|Dur:32nd,Staccato|Pos:7|Opts:Stem=Up,Beam=First,ArticulationsOnStem
|Note|Dur:32nd,Staccato|Pos:-2|Opts:Stem=Up,Beam,ArticulationsOnStem
|Note|Dur:32nd,Staccato|Pos:0|Opts:Stem=Up,Beam,ArticulationsOnStem
|Note|Dur:32nd,Staccato|Pos:2|Opts:Stem=Up,Beam,ArticulationsOnStem
|Note|Dur:32nd,Staccato|Pos:5|Opts:Stem=Up,Beam,ArticulationsOnStem
|Note|Dur:32nd,Staccato|Pos:7|Opts:Stem=Up,Beam=End,ArticulationsOnStem
|Note|Dur:4th|Pos:9^|Opts:Stem=Up,ArticulationsOnStem,Tie=Upward
|Note|Dur:8th|Pos:-7|Opts:Muted
|Bar
|Note|Dur:32nd,Staccato|Pos:9|Opts:Stem=Up,Beam=First,ArticulationsOnStem
|Note|Dur:32nd,Staccato|Pos:0|Opts:Stem=Up,Beam,ArticulationsOnStem
|Note|Dur:32nd,Staccato|Pos:2|Opts:Stem=Up,Beam,ArticulationsOnStem
|Note|Dur:32nd,Staccato|Pos:5|Opts:Stem=Up,Beam,ArticulationsOnStem
|Note|Dur:32nd,Staccato|Pos:7|Opts:Stem=Up,Beam,ArticulationsOnStem
|Note|Dur:32nd,Staccato|Pos:9|Opts:Stem=Up,Beam=End,ArticulationsOnStem
|Note|Dur:4th|Pos:12|Opts:Stem=Up
|Rest|Dur:8th|Opts:VertOffset=-8|Visibility:Never
|Bar
|Dynamic|Style:p|Pos:-16|Justify:Right
|Note|Dur:16th,Slur|Pos:0|Opts:Stem=Up,Crescendo,Beam=First
|Note|Dur:16th,Slur|Pos:-2|Opts:Stem=Up,Crescendo,Beam
|Note|Dur:16th|Pos:2|Opts:Stem=Up,Crescendo,Beam=End
|Note|Dur:16th,Slur|Pos:0|Opts:Stem=Up,Crescendo,Beam=First
|Note|Dur:16th,Slur|Pos:-2|Opts:Stem=Up,Crescendo,Beam
|Note|Dur:16th|Pos:2|Opts:Stem=Up,Crescendo,Beam=End
|Note|Dur:16th,Slur|Pos:0|Opts:Stem=Up,Crescendo,Beam=First
|Note|Dur:16th,Slur|Pos:-2|Opts:Stem=Up,Crescendo,Beam
|Note|Dur:16th|Pos:2|Opts:Stem=Up,Crescendo,Beam=End
|Bar|Style:Double
!NoteWorthyComposerClip-End

Staff 2:

Code: [Select · Download]

!NoteWorthyComposerClip(2.0,Single)
|Clef|Type:Treble
|Key|Signature:F#
|TimeSig|Signature:3/8
|Note|Dur:8th,Slur|Pos:-2|Opts:Stem=Down,Slur=Downward,Tie=Downward
|Note|Dur:16th|Pos:2z|Opts:Stem=Down,StemLength=1,XAccSpace=1,XNoteSpace=3,Muted|Visibility:Never
|Note|Dur:16th,Slur|Pos:-2|Opts:Stem=Down,StemLength=12,Beam=First
|Note|Dur:16th,Slur|Pos:-11z|Opts:Stem=Down,StemLength=1,Beam,XNoteSpace=1,NoLegerLines
|Note|Dur:16th,Slur|Pos:-11z|Opts:Stem=Down,StemLength=1,Beam,XNoteSpace=1,NoLegerLines
|Note|Dur:16th,Slur|Pos:-2|Opts:Stem=Down,Beam
|Note|Dur:16th,Slur|Pos:-5|Opts:Stem=Down,Beam,XNoteSpace=2
|Note|Dur:16th|Pos:0|Opts:Stem=Down,StemLength=14,Beam=End
|Bar
|Chord|Dur:8th,Slur|Pos:-7,-2|Opts:Stem=Down,Slur=Downward,Tie=Downward
|Note|Dur:16th|Pos:2z|Opts:Stem=Down,StemLength=1,XAccSpace=1,XNoteSpace=3,Muted|Visibility:Never
|Note|Dur:16th,Slur|Pos:-2|Opts:Stem=Down,StemLength=12,Beam=First
|Note|Dur:16th,Slur|Pos:-11z|Opts:Stem=Down,StemLength=1,Beam,XNoteSpace=1,NoLegerLines
|Note|Dur:16th,Slur|Pos:-11z|Opts:Stem=Down,StemLength=1,Beam,XNoteSpace=1,NoLegerLines
|Note|Dur:16th,Slur|Pos:-2|Opts:Stem=Down,Beam
|Note|Dur:16th,Slur|Pos:-5|Opts:Stem=Down,Beam,XNoteSpace=2
|Note|Dur:16th|Pos:0|Opts:Stem=Down,StemLength=14,Beam=End
|Bar
|Chord|Dur:8th,Slur|Pos:-7,-2|Opts:Stem=Down,Slur=Downward,Tie=Downward
|Note|Dur:16th|Pos:2z|Opts:Stem=Down,StemLength=1,XAccSpace=1,XNoteSpace=3,Muted|Visibility:Never
|Note|Dur:16th,Slur|Pos:-2|Opts:Stem=Down,StemLength=12,Beam=First
|Note|Dur:16th,Slur|Pos:-11z|Opts:Stem=Down,StemLength=1,Beam,XNoteSpace=1,NoLegerLines
|Note|Dur:16th,Slur|Pos:-11z|Opts:Stem=Down,StemLength=1,Beam,XNoteSpace=1,NoLegerLines
|Note|Dur:16th,Slur|Pos:-2|Opts:Stem=Down,Beam
|Note|Dur:16th,Slur|Pos:-5|Opts:Stem=Down,Beam,XNoteSpace=2
|Note|Dur:16th|Pos:0|Opts:Stem=Down,StemLength=14,Beam=End
|Bar
|Chord|Dur:8th,Slur|Pos:-7,-2|Opts:Stem=Down,Slur=Downward,Tie=Downward
|Note|Dur:16th|Pos:2z|Opts:Stem=Down,StemLength=1,XAccSpace=1,XNoteSpace=3,Muted|Visibility:Never
|Note|Dur:16th,Slur|Pos:-2|Opts:Stem=Down,StemLength=8,Beam=First
|Note|Dur:16th,Slur|Pos:-12z|Opts:Stem=Down,StemLength=0,Beam,NoLegerLines
|Note|Dur:16th,Slur|Pos:-11z|Opts:Stem=Down,StemLength=0,Beam=End,NoLegerLines
|Note|Dur:8th,Slur|Pos:-7|Opts:Stem=Down,XNoteSpace=1
|Rest|Dur:16th|Opts:Stem=Down,VertOffset=6|Visibility:Never
|Bar
|Chord|Dur:8th|Pos:-7,-5|Opts:Stem=Down,Beam=First
|Rest|Dur:16th|Opts:Stem=Down,VertOffset=-8|Visibility:Never
|Chord|Dur:8th|Pos:-7,-5|Opts:Stem=Down,Beam
|Rest|Dur:16th|Opts:Stem=Down,VertOffset=-8|Visibility:Never
|Chord|Dur:8th|Pos:-7,-5|Opts:Stem=Down,Beam=End
|Rest|Dur:16th|Opts:Stem=Down,VertOffset=-8|Visibility:Never
!NoteWorthyComposerClip-End

Re: Hidden note display anomaly in Preview 1x

Reply #12 – 2005-12-31 01:20 am

G'day Rick,
I just had my first real look at the problem as described in your opening post - did you notice that the alignment problem only occurs when you beam the notes in the lower staff?

Of course, I'm guessing from the second set of clips that cross staff beaming is what you're playing with...

Lawrie

Re: Hidden note display anomaly in Preview 1x

Reply #13 – 2005-12-31 02:47 am

Lawrie: yes, on both accounts. I'm seeing a lot of things that look strange, but after working with them, seem to have a purpose. I don't want to say more until I learn more.

Re: Hidden note display anomaly in Preview 1x

Reply #14 – 2005-12-31 04:52 am

Pär,regarding reply 9, in addition to what Lawrie says, by preserving the space of a blank space notehead, they can be used to anchor cue notes - see https://forum.noteworthycomposer.com/?topic=5337, reply 5. Plain invisible notes won't do that.

Re: Hidden note display anomaly in Preview 1x

Reply #15 – 2005-12-31 05:20 pm

The point is: Invisible notes (with space occupied) serve a purpose. Nonexistent noteheads would be incompatible with the surrounding technology.

If a change is to be made, then an option for "stem on wrong side" (up at left, down at right, relative to notehead) would be better for the purpose.

Re: Hidden note display anomaly in Preview 1x

Reply #16 – 2006-01-02 12:05 am

Perhaps I spoke too soon and skipped a few explanatory lines, possibly I messed it up a bit, too. The mind is quicker than the hand... ;-)

The problem I was talking about was/is, that NWC writes one thing on the score window, and something else on the print preview window/printout.

Either NWC should consider the width of the note head when the note is made invisible (Ctrl-E->Visibilty->Never) and it has an extra note spacing, or it should not, just as it does for the notes with no note head.

Using two different schemes, one for the score window and one for the print preview window, as it does now, serves, as I see it, no purpose.

The problem is, that you see one thing on the score window, and you adjust your score accordingly. Then, you open up print preview, or print the page, and it isn't the same anymore. Note, I don't ask for wysiwyg, but as it is, it's too much of a difference. It looks on the print preview as if there is no extra spacing added.

I've put two images on my web site, describing what I mean. The top image is from the score window and the bottom one is from the print preview. There are four staffs on each image. Of the top two staffs, the topmost has an extra note spacing of 1, whereas the other doesn't. Of the lower two staffs, none of them has any extra spacing.
http://user.bahnhof.se/~smars/private/Notes.html

The page will be deleted after about a week.

If I'm still murky, let me know.

Re: Hidden note display anomaly in Preview 1x

Reply #17 – 2006-01-02 12:46 am

G'day Pär,
In general, I can understand why the edit window is different to print preview... If they were both exactly the same, then it would be very difficult to select items for editing in the edit window. They must take up horizontal space in order to be selectable.

However, if their (invisible notes) space was taken up in the preview window (or when printed) then the output would be irregular.

As I see it, the real problem arises when using invisible objects to position other things like beams and slurs etc.

In my case, the headless invisible note with extra note spacing of 3 allowed me to position my slur fairly well, though I would have liked an option of 4. I note that if I simply have an invisible note it works just as well, as would a rest if it had the extra note spacing attribute available.

In the beaming example, the results seem quite different, When the note is invisible, the layered staff is closing up the spacing because the leading note has nothing to align with.

I agree that more consistency between the edit window and the print preview/printed page would be good here, but I would be concerned about the risk of compromising other editing features.

Afterall, the purpose of print preview is to check alignment and other appearance issues.

Perhaps the real problem in this instance is that beaming, on the first note, should take into account extra note spacing regardless of visibility, but then, if the note is headless, the problem disappears with the exception that the spacing is now 1 notehead width greater than it really needs to be.

Actually, with that in mind, I think I'd like to see the extra note space attribute extended... Instead of 0 to 3 I'd like to see -2 to 5, or at the very least -1 to 4

Lawrie

Re: Hidden note display anomaly in Preview 1x

Reply #18 – 2006-01-02 02:34 pm

I can see the problem clearly now. Thanks for the illustrations.

I don't find the disconnect between the two screens to be at all troublesome, except I can never figure out how to see the 14th, 15th or so staffs.

It's a good idea to frequently look at the preview while building the score. Some time ago, NWC changed the preview function so that you now end up with the active bar visible on the preview screen when you move from edit window. It's so quick and easy to look at the preview (alt f v) and come back (esc) that it should not be a distraction at all. Enter something special - peek - fix - peek - tweak - peek - accept and move on.

Re: Hidden note display anomaly in Preview 1x

Reply #19 – 2006-01-03 04:19 pm

[Lawrie Pardy]
> In my case, the headless invisible note with extra note
> spacing of 3 allowed me to position my slur fairly well,
> though I would have liked an option of 4.

Combine Extra Note Spacing with Extra Accidental Spacing maybe...?

In order to be able to fully position notes as anchors for slurs and alike, I think there also should be an option to set the note length to zero, i.e. NWC would count the note as having no playable time at all.

> Afterall, the purpose of print preview is to check alignment
> and other appearance issues.

Exactly. :-)

> Actually, with that in mind, I think I'd like to see the extra
> note space attribute extended... Instead of 0 to 3 I'd like to
> see -2 to 5, or at the very least -1 to 4

That's a good idea. But here's another idea. If there was a special anchor character available, all of these problems will probably go away.

My imaginary anchor character would, of course, not be heard, nor have any length in time, it would only serve as an anchor for slurs and ties and alike. Its width should be nothing, so if you add an anchor character and don't adjust its width, nothing would happen, but you could set its width to whatever you needed, on both right side and left, so other notes and such would move the desired distance. And of course it should be optional to add an anchor, if there were no anchors added to the score, everything would work as it does now.

Think of this anchor character as a text expression with an adjustable amount of space characters. Also, its visibility should not affect the visibility of the slurs and ties, as it's done now with invisible notes. This way you could write your music almost without limitations.

BTW, can't you use a text expression with a few spaces to add more white space before/after your notes...?

[David Palmquist]
> I don't find the disconnect between the two screens to be
> at all troublesome, except I can never figure out how to
> see the 14th, 15th or so staffs.

I'm not sure what you mean. If you meant the score window, and viewing all those staffs at the same time, I think your only option is to either increase screen resolution, optionally also get a larger monitor.

Re: Hidden note display anomaly in Preview 1x

Reply #20 – 2006-01-03 06:50 pm

G'day Pär,

Combine Extra Note Spacing with Extra Accidental Spacing maybe...? - unfortunately this only moves accidentals to the left, doesn't move notes further right.

A zero length note would affect the appearance of the note chase in playback - I'm not keen on that BUT your next suggestion of an "anchor" character that can be used to position slurs etc. is very interesting! Perhaps this is an answer to controlling slur shape as well! However, it must be able to be positioned much the same as text - Left/Centre/Right Justified, best fit/next note/best fit forward etc.. - I think you should stick this in the wish-list!

BTW, can't you use a text expression with a few spaces to add more white space before/after your notes...? - unfortunately this creates "space" on all staves, not just the one you're working on... The end result is that the layout remains the same, just more stretched out.

Lawrie

Re: Hidden note display anomaly in Preview 1x

Reply #21 – 2006-01-03 11:08 pm

> [...] an "anchor" character that can be used to position slurs
> etc. is very interesting! Perhaps this is an answer to controlling
> slur shape as well! However, it must be able to be positioned
> much the same as text - Left/Centre/Right Justified, best
> fit/next note/best fit forward etc..

Yes, this was my intention, more or less carbon copy the text expression, but allow slurs/ties/etc. to attach to it. I guess it would be like the new hairpin crescendos, which follow the dynamic object up and down. The slurs/ties (at least one end of them) would follow this anchor object.

> - I think you should stick this in the wish-list!

Hmmm, you mean Eric doesn't read his own forum...? ;-)

Seriously, before we do so, is there anything else that we need to think about regarding this new anchor object? Such as if there are any more things that one might want to attach to it, other than slurs and ties? Anything else?

Re: Hidden note display anomaly in Preview 1x

Reply #22 – 2006-01-03 11:41 pm

For display purposes I think this proposed "anchor" should have all of the visual attributes of a normal note.

E.G. we should be able to attach articulations (for use in layering AND to allow us to display articulations easily in arbitrary positions.

E.E.G In most of the jazz charts I see, articulations are shown above (sometimes) below the staff and always in pretty much the same vertical position regardless of the note position.

So, articulations, slurs, ties (this may cause playback problems...), accidentals, "hairpins" etc.

I don't think it needs "stem direction" or "grace" attributes and it absolutely must not consume time.

That's about it for me.

Lawrie

Re: Hidden note display anomaly in Preview 1x

Reply #23 – 2006-01-04 01:54 am

Perhaps it is implicit in the above, but I would explicitly ask that the "anchor" be allowed at any point between the ends of a slur/tie, to make it possible to push the curve up or down, for example to miss items in a layered staff. Currently invisible grace notes seem to be the usual items used for this.

Re: Hidden note display anomaly in Preview 1x

Reply #24 – 2006-01-04 08:23 am

Pär, re reply

Normally I reduce the staff vertical sizes for printing the score, but while working, I like them to be well separated.

Try this:
Create a score with page setup staff size 16, that has 5 reed staffs, 4 trumpets, 3 trombones, guitar, piano, string bass and drums. Assuming you'll have lots of high and low notes, you need good staff upper and lower heights, perhaps 25 and 10 or 10 and 25, depending on instrument.

Look at it in print preview. If you've selected letter or A4 paper, you likely won't be able to see the last few staffs, because they would print on a second page. Contrast this with Excel, for instance, where you might have a worksheet that is 100 rows. When you print, about 60 rows will be on the first sheet, but the rest will print on a second sheet.

Even on my new 19" flat screen monitor (merry Christmas, she said) at 1152x864, you can't see all the lines.

Re: Hidden note display anomaly in Preview 1x

Reply #25 – 2006-01-04 01:17 pm

[David Palmquist]
> Normally I reduce the staff vertical sizes for printing the score,
> but while working, I like them to be well separated.

Aha, now I get it. Then install a mock-up printer to use, that has the size of paper you need. Set it to "print to file" when you "install" it. It won't actually print anything on paper, but you will probably be able to see more staffs. Refer to online resources for what kind of printer to use, since it isn't immediately obvious what size of paper they use when you install them. Check manufacturers' web sites. You'll need one that is capable of handling the size of paper you're interested in, or you could try with an old style line printer, that can take endless documents. Even though you'll be "printing" graphics to the line printer driver, it will probaby handle it correctly, if it's a reasonably modern driver.

In the case with the line printer, you might want to create a new paper size to use with it.

Re: Hidden note display anomaly in Preview 1x

Reply #26 – 2006-01-04 01:43 pm

I've never used it, but my HP printer has a "banner" mode in which it expects a (effectively) infinite sheet of paper. Would this give the desired results? I'm not sure what it does when it reaches the end of a "page", so it would take some trials, but it might allow what you want.

Re: Hidden note display anomaly in Preview 1x

Reply #27 – 2006-01-04 01:55 pm

Cyril:

Won't work. I have a HP printer. In banner mode, print preview is unchanged.

Re: Hidden note display anomaly in Preview 1x

Reply #28 – 2006-01-04 05:58 pm

I have just tried installing a generic line printer driver on my XP system. I used the "Generic IBM Graphics 9pin wide" printer that is available as a default printer on my system. I had it print to file when I installed it.

Then I created a new paper format, that I called "0-Special" so it would come at the top of my list of paper formats.

You change paper formats in the "Printers and Fax" settings (it's a special folder on XP, available through Start->Settings->Printers and Fax). In this folder you access paper formats in "File->Server Properties". I think it's mostly straight forward from there. If not, ask.

I've now got a print preview that is 21 cm wide and 50 cm tall, with a quite tall score sitting nicely in the middle (vertically) with lots of space at the top and bottom to add more staffs, should I want to. So it can be done using a line printer (also called pin-writer). I guess you could use say, 21 cm wide and three miles tall, too. Although this is untested... ;-)

So, to sum it up, you need a printer that can handle the larger format, not some non-standard concoction they cooked up at HP or whatever. If it's an HP plotter, it might work, otherwise you need something else.

Good luck!

Re: Hidden note display anomaly in Preview 1x

Reply #29 – 2006-01-05 04:53 am

Thanks for suggesting the printer installation. That led me to look into printer settings.

I find you don't need to change printers, just use the printer setup feature to change paper size to legal. That, with top and bottom margins set to zero, notation size 14 and no staff with a height greater than 15 (top) and 10 (bottom) allows me to view all the staffs in my jazz ensemble score. There is a custom size setting too, but I'm not sure how to set it.

Re: Hidden note display anomaly in Preview 1x

Reply #30 – 2006-01-05 11:19 am

Well, you never said anything about how big you wanted it.

Re: Hidden note display anomaly in Preview 1x

Reply #31 – 2006-01-06 06:52 am

Legal size is really barely adequate. To see if it would be enough yesterday, I had to adjust the vertical size of each staff - too time consuming.

Your page size, Pär, is ideal for full display. The next problem, though, is printing. My printer wouldn't handle it, would yours?

Having to remember to change printer page setup specs every time you print can be a nuisance.

Re: Hidden note display anomaly in Preview 1x

Reply #32 – 2006-01-06 08:53 am

You need to try a PostScript printer.
I'm using "Apple Color LW 12/660 PS" but most any will do.
It's got this little box called Scaling, usually set to 100%.
Works just like a copier. Setting it to 67% gets a lot more on a page.
Getting NWC2 to display it is the easy part.

Getting it to a file or printer is tougher. I use GhostScript and Redmon, both free from Univ of Wisconsin.
~10mb download. Took about a day to figure out how to configure it.
As a bonus, you get 2up & 4up. Great for making study scores.

Eventually, you'll want to be able to roll your own paper size and resolution.
Plan another day to learn how to modify spd files.

Currently, I'm sending NWC2 output to a 1" x 2" 16color bmpfile @ 4096dpi. Filesize: 16mb

David, I can hear you already: "Why on earth would anyone want to do that?"

Re: Hidden note display anomaly in Preview 1x

Reply #33 – 2006-01-06 01:15 pm

... because you have two hobbies: music, and stamp collecting.

Re: Hidden note display anomaly in Preview 1x

Reply #34 – 2006-01-06 05:12 pm

> Your page size, Pär, is ideal for full display. The next problem,
> though, is printing. My printer wouldn't handle it, would yours?

Of course not, I said I set it to "Print to File", since my real printer cannot handle the format, nor is it a line printer, by the way... ;-) I was under the impression though, that all you wanted was to see more staffs on the print preview while you're working on the score, and that you'd be changing it back to some more normal size for actually printing it. I guess I was wrong.

That aside, you can choose whatever printer that fits your needs, say you find one that can handle A3 or larger, that would work, too, and you wouldn't have to create a special format to use.

My testing this was merely about checking whether it would work or not, and it did; although I had a hunch it would, since I've been doing it before, but on a WinNT system, but you never know with some apps.

As pointed out by Rick G., a good idea is to use a Postscript printer, since you can then use the output together with say, GhostScript, to produce a PDF. Personally I use GSView together with GhostScript, since it's easier to use, and not so fiddly:
http://www.cs.wisc.edu/~ghost/gsview/get47.htm

Re: Hidden note display anomaly in Preview 1x

Reply #35 – 2006-01-07 03:53 am

No, you were right, Pär. It's just such a hassle to have to remember to switch printer settings each time I decide it's time to print.