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Topic: Lyrics in two alphabets (Read 4166 times) previous topic - next topic

Lyrics in two alphabets

Here's a puzzle for you:

I am trying to replicate in NWC a page that has three lines of lyrics: the first is in Greek, in the Greek alphabet;

the second is the Greek text transcribed into the Latin alphabet.

The third is an English translation, *above* the staff.

All three must be aligned with the notes on the staff.

Is this possible in NWC? I have several fonts that have both the Greek and the Latin alphabets, but if I enter the text in the first line in the Greek alphabet and in the second line in the Latin, one or the other will be gibberish, depending on the font.

If I try to make two different files, with the same music but on alphabet on one and the other on the other, I can't align both under the notes; just hiding the music on one of them cause the lyrics to move around on the page.

I *could* do the text above the staff with "Insert Text"; I suppose I could even use "Insert Text" for the second lyric line; but for obvious reasons I don't want to resort to this if there is a better way.

Is there any way to do this?

Stephen

Re: Lyrics in two alphabets

Reply #1 –
Have you tried layering yet?

Re: Lyrics in two alphabets

Reply #2 –
I tried once and something was cockeyed; I need to try again. But as far as I know, layering applies to staves within a single file. Since only one lyrics font can be selected in a file, I don't see how this will help with the problem of two different alphabets. It might enable me to get the Latin transliteration on the second lyric line and the English above the staff, but I still need the Greek in the first lyric line.

Stephen

Re: Lyrics in two alphabets

Reply #3 –
Text entry is very flexible with NW. I have had to enter multiple lyrics for the one stave and it is not too hard.

The horizontal placement is defined so the lyrics can be entered for one line with text lines using the lyric font added immediately on top or below it or both.
It may have to be done word by word for a line. Text properties allow positioning left at the next note - the lyric editor has it too. That gives good line up. Sometimes the use of a non-breaking space (alt 0160) or dash (alt0151) can be helpful.

Re: Lyrics in two alphabets

Reply #4 –
You asked two questions here.
One is: can one lyrics-line be places over the staff, and another under? The answer must be yes, and indeed you should use layering.
Copy the staff and mute it; configure the first staff to hold the 'top' lyrics, and configure the second staff to hold the 'bottom' lyrics. Now, layer the staves - that should work.

The other question: can you mix different character sets? One would suppose so, especially when one character set contains both Greek and Latin characters... but I have not tried it yet - I never needed to.
What happens when you enter Greek - do you have to select character by character, from the symbol table? Does it come out right in the lyrics editor, and then it's nonsense within the music and in Print Preview?

Re: Lyrics in two alphabets

Reply #5 –
What an interesting problem!!

I guess the best solution, and one for the wish list, would be to have the option of using a second font within the lyric editor, that would be something you should put in the wishlist, Stephen.

I don't know the Greek alphabet at all.  Can the symbols be created in the western European fonts by using ANSI or ASCII characters?  If so. you could type the Greek words using Alt-nnn or Alt-nnnn where n represents a digit.  For instance these: °, –—˜ÖÜ¢£¥ƒ ¡¢£ are all produced with Alt-0nnn.

You might also try picking them out on the character map.For instance, charmap.exe shows me these symbols, whatever they are: Ð þ æ ß.

It would be tedious, doing one letter at a time in the lyric editor, but it would be a heck of a lot easier than using text entries anchored to each note.

I would do the English words in the lyrics for one staff, and use an otherwise identical layered second staff, putting the Greek words in its lyric editor.

Re: Lyrics in two alphabets

Reply #6 –
Sorry, Rob, I started writing my reply before yours appeared on my screen, and I didn't look back before pressing send.

Great minds think alike, eh?

Re: Lyrics in two alphabets

Reply #7 –
Thanks to all who replied. The problem I was having with layering was that the underlay of the English text differed from that of the Greek in that sometimes notes would be joined over the syllable in one language but distributed over two in the other. I have figured out a sort of solution for this. Putting text over the staff instead of under is easy in NWC, and layering permits text both above and below, also easily. The problem is the two alphabets.

I inserted the Greek text, from the same font I used for the English, letter by letter from the "insert" character map. I have not yet tried entering it with the numeric code (what a drag!). I get gibberish--a mix of punctuation marks and some alphabetic letters--as soon as it hits NWC. There is a standing problem with MS text entry, since there is one character map for Windows and another for Word, and they do not communicate with one another. This is one of the many things wrong with MS, of course. The only way out of the encoding mess that I can see is for everyone to adopt Unicode.

Stephen

Re: Lyrics in two alphabets

Reply #8 –
OK, I guess that's what I must do. I just did it in Times New Roman Greek, entering the Greek letter by letter with the four-digit code. It works. The original was polytonic and of course I had to settle for monotonic with TNRG, but otherwise it's all right. Maybe I can find a keyboard that will let me do it without the agony. The three lines of text are where I want them, in the appropriate alphabets.

Stephen

Re: Lyrics in two alphabets

Reply #9 –
How many words did you have, Stephen, and how long did it take?

I wonder if you couldn't do a workaround by changing your Windows international settings to Greece?  The keyboard would probably reconfigure itself to type the Greek characters, and you would simple do them in Notepad or some such.

Save the notepad file, then change the settings back to whatever English version you normally use.  Reopen the text based file, and copy all the words back into the appropriate part of the lyrics editor.

I'm not sure this will work, so I'd suggest trying it first with just a few words to see if the program can translate.
 

Re: Lyrics in two alphabets

Reply #10 –
David:

[Sorry, Rob, I started writing my reply before yours appeared on my screen, and I didn't look back before pressing send.

Great minds think alike, eh?]

That's what my daughter keeps telling me.
I like your suggestion (and I have not tried it yet) but in practice there may be stumbling blocks. Windows has a habit of doing intelligent things, just the way you don't want them...