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confused about concert keys

This is really not a software question. I am an organist. A brass quintet has been hired to play at an upcoming wedding. Their arrangement of Trumpet Voluntay is in "the concert key of B flat" (per one of the trumpet players)

So, my question is - in what key should my organ music be? I apologize if I have wasted time on this board with a very dumb question - but all the brass players I usually play for play this in the Key of D (just as my organ music is written).

Re: confused about concert keys

Reply #1 –
Fred,
"the concert key of B flat" means just that. You are a
concert pitch instrument, so you will play in Bb. The
quintet should provide you with the appropriate parts for
their arrangement.

Don't be too concerned with the details, that's their
problem! but in case you're interested, the Bb brass
instruments will be playing in the key of C.

Re: confused about concert keys

Reply #2 –
Hi everyone!
"The Bb brass instruments will be playing in the key of C" that John said sounds a little bit confusing.
I think "When a Bb brass instrument player plays the C scale (CDEFGABC) it sounds like Bb scale (BbCDEbFGABb) in concert key" is what he wanted to.
But this is not always true.
For example, Bb tuba players often play music notated in concert key. That is, when he plays C he pushes valve 1 and 3. The trombone is originally an instrument of Bb key but always played in concert key. And the Frenchhorn is much more complicated.
I may be saying too much detail. If so I am sorry.

Re: confused about concert keys

Reply #3 –
Don't be sorry I STILL don't understand the concept.

With a piano, when I look at sheet music with the note for middle C, I press the key for middle C. The piano plays the tone for middle C (fundamental in the neighborhood of 256 Hz, or so).

With a Bb instrument, when I look at sheet music with the note for middle C, what key(s) do I press? Having pressed them, what tone do I get?

To Bb or not to Bb, that is the question.

Re: confused about concert keys

Reply #4 –
The trombone and tuba are both concert pitch instruments (i.e., play a C get a C). I do have a book that says the trombone is a Bb, but it looks like it a case of change in definition (flamable used to mean inflamable or something like that). The difinately-Bb-intruments, the trumpets, WILL be playing in the key of C when the piano plays in Bb, but because the trumpet's a Bb instrument, C sounds like Bb. The french horn is an F instrument, the F sounds like a C, so yes, it does get complicated, and even more so when you consider that with just the holding of a valve the trombone switches to the key of F making it sort of a french horn, but that's nothing to worry about... In general, bass clef instruments are C instruments and G clef instruments are whatever-the-origional-designer-want's instruments. And, IMHO, organ is a how-can-you-be-so-coordinated? instrument!

Re: confused about concert keys

Reply #5 –
P. S. I have no sympathy for trumpet players who can't play in concert key (and make the rest of us transpose because of it...)

Re: confused about concert keys

Reply #6 –
Let a clarinet player who doubles on sax confuse you a little. Instruments are said to be pitched in different keys because the musicians read from parts that have been transposed - thus "transposing instruments." Transposing the written part makes life a lot easier for the musician who plays more than one instrument.

Consider the Bb tenor sax and the somewhat smaller Eb alto sax. A certain finger position will produce one pitch on the tenor and a different pitch on the alto due to their different sizes.

If the tenor and alto were to be played in unison, the two players would have to use different fingerings to get the same pitch. If you regularly "double" between various members of the sax family, it can be difficult to remember different fingerings. If you see a D on the staff, it's best if you finger it the same way on any of your instruments. Since the instruments are a different size, thought, that fingering will produce one pitch on the first instrument and a totally different one on the other. To correct for this, you transpose the written note to where the player will natually use the right fingering to get the right pitch. This makes life a lot easier.

If you want the pitch you would hear if you play F on the piano, you would write a G for the tenor sax and a D for the alto.

Now, clarinet and sax - that's always a challenge, because they don't have the same fingerings, and often a sax player will accidentally use a clarinet fingering, with unintended results...

In the days when every household had a piano, and everyone bought Tin Pan Alley charts for vocal and piano, the C melody sax was developed so the player could play along with the family without having to sight-transpose.

Hope all this clariried things a little.
David

Re: confused about concert keys

Reply #7 –
Sorry about the typos on my preceding posting.

Re: confused about concert keys

Reply #8 –
You know, all these years, and I never knew that! I just thought wind players were awkward sods who liked to be different!

It just goes to show how educational this forum can be.

Robin

Re: confused about concert keys

Reply #9 –
Thanks to everyone who replied - I have Trumpet Voluntary at home in B flat so I don't have to write it out in another key to accompany the quintet and I learned much that was interesting. Now if any of you know how to get the general contractor to work harder so as to finish our parish sanctuary renovation in time for Christmas Mass (we were supposed to have the dedication yesterday but it is postponed sometime ago....) Thanks again.

Re: confused about concert keys

Reply #10 –
Transposition in general....

Trombones mostly read concert pitch (bass tenor or alto
clefs), but in some cases, most often brass band music,
they read treble clef transposed into Bb and up an octave.
However, you can read this as if it were tenor clef concert
pitch with a few accidentals adjusted ;-) A useful trick
to know is that Eb transposed music in treble clef (eg:
alto or baritone sax) can be read as bass clef concert
pitch, again with accidentals adjusted.

Some instruments ignore the issue of different fingerings
for different sized instruments. For example, the recorder
family traditionally reads concert pitch no matter which
instrument. You just have to learn the different fingerings.
Live with it!

The ironic thing about transposition is that the intention
is to make things easy so that people only need learn
one set of fingerings for all instruments in a particular
family. The reality is that you actually INCREASE the
number of fingerings you need to learn. For example, there
are commonly 3 types of sax: Eb, Bb and (rare) C, so 3
different fingerings would be required if everyone just
read concert pitch. With transposition, there is in theory
just one, but the reality is you would need to be able
to read "normal" transpositon, concert pitch, plus
transpositions for each of the other instruments.

The other effect is to royally confuse all those folk who
play concert pitch instruments (as evidenced by this
thread ;-).

>In the days when every household had a piano, and everyone
> bought Tin Pan Alley charts for vocal and piano, the C
> melody sax was developed so the player could play along
> with the family without having to sight-transpose.

Technology to the rescue :-), my piano is a Clavinova
which can be transposed into any key. When my daughter
took up the clarinet, she very quickly learned to set
the piano into Bb so sounded the same notes as the clarinet.

Re: confused about concert keys

Reply #11 –
Jhon's comment is quite right. And I was able to understand all of it. I am a contrabass player now and used to be a trombone player and sometimes play the oboe and the recorder too.

Well, then I have an idea I have been thinking of.
The viola usually use alto clef (sometimes G clef).
But how about using G clef and regarding it as a transposed instrument in the key of F (perfect 5th low).
I think one reason why violin players can't play the viola is this alto clef.
May be there lies a lot of historical background though.
What do you guys think?

I am sorry the discussion goes further from NWC.

Re: confused about concert keys

Reply #12 –
Well - I think the Alto clef is the C clef.

Re: confused about concert keys

Reply #13 –
I know nothing about the G clef, so I can't comment on that. A couple of thoughts though, about John's posting. He mentions his daughter being able to set her clavinova to Bb to play along with Bb transposing instruments. If she were one of those individuals fortunate enough to have perfect pitch, I wonder how that would confuse her?

John also suggested "With transposition, there is in theory
just one, but the reality is you would need to be able
to read "normal" transpositon, concert pitch, plus
transpositions for each of the other instruments." I disagree. In reality, you seldom refer to the untransposed scores, unless you're discussing whether or not a written note is correct and your conductor has to check the score. Then you need to decide if you will ask him to confirm your written note or its concert pitch equivalent. Sometimes takes a minute or two to agree which you're talking about. That's always fun!

No, the reality is it is the copyist who extracts each part from a composition or arrangement written in concert pitch, and does all the transposition for you. All you've got to do is play the prescribed fingering (and lipping) for the note you see on the page.

Someone mentioned recorder - I have an alto which I seldom play but I think it had instructions that suggested playing either in concert pitch, using all sorts of new fingerings, or playing in a transposed pitch, using the fingering one would normally have been accustomed to on a soprano.

The doubling player normally works from a chart transposed for the instrument.

Think about the pit orchestra reed player, who might have to play clarinet, 2 types of sax, and flute. S/he's so busy juggling horns and tryning to play the difficult charts that s/he simply does not need the added aggravation of reading something in concert pitch, and trying to decide if it needs to be transposed a major second or a fifth. Just give him/her the part written in the appropriate key for the instruments, and life becomes a breeze.

Re: confused about concert keys

Reply #14 –
That's why NWC is so great. It does most of your extraction and transposition for you - no need for copyist to extract/transpose parts!

Re: confused about concert keys

Reply #15 –
Well, if I've well understand what you're saying just the reply before (reply 13), yes, NWC does most of the transposition work, and no (you need to know the new clef (not key) and the number of semi-tones to transpose higher/lower).

BTW, when you want to print a conductor score, two options are available.
* Either you print it with scores written as the separate parts will be, i.e. in each instrument pitch, and the conductor has to transpose the right parts when it reads it (for example, a C major chord may be read as C, D (for Bb instruments to play a C), C# (for instruments in Eb to play a E), and so on, which can be confusing for him/her;
* Or you print it all in "concert pitch", which is much more easy for him/her to read --but s/he won't read what YOU are reading (if you're not playing a C instrument), so if there is an error in the transposition word (copyist fault), s/he would shout to you "No, F!!!" where you should read an Eb... Funny ain't it :)

In the latter case, you will need two versions of the "transposing instruments" if you want to print rapidly both conductor score and separate parts (or you want to be puzzled each time you have to print in concert pitch or transposed pitch). NWC is really great for this (you just need to duplicate the original staff and transpose it definitely.
NWC does this really easily, and even gives a way to search for enharmonic spellings :) :)

What NWC does't provide though, is the other clefs. I know 7 of them, four with Ut (C) symbol (line 1, 2, 3 (Alto clef) and 4 (Tenor clef)), two with G symbol (line 1 and line 2 (soprano clef)), and two with F symbol (line 3 and line 4 (Bass clef)).
Those clefs *can* be used not only for sight-transposition (as learn in Conservatoire), but sometimes for very high or low notes. Personally I prefer using 8va or 8vo symbols :)

Oh, and if I may dare to give an advice: when writing (composing) for "transposed instruments", start writing the conductor score in concert pitch (i.e. as if all instruments were C instruments). This is much more easy to read :)
When all the work is done, and it sounds as you want, then duplicate the staves that need to be transposed, and do it properly. Hide them (and mute them either!!!) unless you want to print them.
And if you want to print what I call "ensemble score", then you will print the transposed parts together, not the concert pitch. This is what I do when playing flute with clarinet in Bb and french horn, all of us reading the same sheet...
Never forget to mention in the score name the pitch written ("Clarinette en Ut", "Clarinette en Si b" for instance) or you'll experiment strange harmonies :)

HTH

Re: confused about concert keys

Reply #16 –
OH NOOOOOOO......

After reading all of the above, I can't play piano anymore!

Re: confused about concert keys

Reply #17 –
Wanna buy a well-used clarinet?

Re: confused about concert keys

Reply #18 –
It depends... Is it in C or Bb? ;)

Re: confused about concert keys

Reply #19 –
A

(but I really only have a Bb, and don't want to sell)

Re: confused about concert keys

Reply #20 –
I've got a C, C#, Db, D, Eb, E, F, F#, Gb, G, Ab, A, Bb, B and Cb guitar. Capo included at no extra charge.

Fred

Re: confused about concert keys

Reply #21 –
Capo included at no extra chrage? How about a Godfather?

Re: confused about concert keys

Reply #22 –
Godfather included only if you're late in payment.

Re: confused about concert keys

Reply #23 –
Ohhh, this is getting awful. Emailed to me today:

d.c. al capone: you betta go back to the beginning, capiche?
- Richard Rosen, Silver Spring MD
dill piccolo: a wind instrument that plays only sour notes.
- Sandy Steinberg, Walkersville MD
diminuendo: the process of quieting a rumor in the orchestra pit.
- David S. Dubov, Fairfax VA
eardrum: a teeny, tiny tympani.
- Judith Clark, Washington DC
More, but I wouldn't want to get silly about it...

Re: confused about concert keys

Reply #24 –
Hello, I have a few more comments to add to this topic.

The idea of transposing instruments originally started with the old French Horn. Back then, it was simply called the "Hand-horn". It had no valves, and it could only play the notes that were on its partials based on its tuning.

I'll explain: -- If the horn was tuned to F, you'd be able to play these notes, ascending:

F-F-C-F-A-C-Eb-F-G-A-B-C -- etc, it does continue.

If the horn was tuned to A, you'd get:
A-A-E-A-C#-E-G-A-B-C#-D#-E -- etc

Now how did they change the tuning of the instrument for different situations? They put in "crooks" -- lengths of tuibing that either shortened or lenghthened the length of the pipe, thereby changing the pitch.

Now, think for a second: You are a hand-horn player, and your instrument is tuned in C at the moment. On the page in front of you there are three notes: C-E-G (regular ol' chord). You play them. Now, the music says to switch to A crook. Then, the composer wants you to play the notes: A C# E -- basically a transposition of what you just played, C-E-G.

Here is the key: Even though you are playing DIFFERENT pitches with the A-crook, it is still the same RELATIVE feeling in your LIPS to play A-C#-E as it is to play C-E-G. So the composer WRITES C-E-G. This may clarify:

IF THE COMPOSER WRITES C-E-G:
this crook: Makes this sound:
B B-D#-F#
A A-C#-E
F F-A-C

And this all applies, even if the composer writes JUST C-E-G.

Well, this little old idea caught on. It really helped the instrumentalists, and who cared about that poor old guy up there at the podium that has to read a zillion different transpositions?

And that's how it all started.

Also, to help with transpositions:

C played by a Bb instrument (ex. clarinet, trumpet) is really a Bb.
C played by an Eb instrument (ex Alto Sax) is really an Eb.
C played by a French Horn (an F instrument) is really an F.

Got it? :-)

Re: confused about concert keys

Reply #25 –
Got it! The keyboard analogy would be my first toy piano. its notes were Red, orange, yellow,...etc. Major chord would be red-yellow-blue.

Re: confused about concert keys

Reply #26 –
Trumpets used to do this to way back, I think. That's why the trombone was prefered (and, from what's been said, why it stayed in C...)

Re: confused about concert keys

Reply #27 –
Got it!
But why is this transposed sheet music for horns(relatively classical) used still now?
Modern horn players don't have extra crooks.
Almost all instruments are in key F or Bb.
When they play the music notated in D for instance, they have to read it with minor 3rd down transposition, or use a special fingering for D. And these should be done in real time.
Why do horn players have to be suffered from these difficulties?

Re: confused about concert keys

Reply #28 –
Why do keyboard players have to suffer from white and black keys? What is convenient in the key of C is inonvenient in any other key. Why to Tenors have to suffer from Sopranos, and vice-versa? It is a cruel world. Who says that there are no longer any crooks in music?

Re: confused about concert keys

Reply #29 –
One word about transposition, it's TRADITION! I think thats basically it. As for pianos, I'm so used to the black keys now that I would not have it any other way....

Re: confused about concert keys

Reply #30 –
As I recall from studing Beethoven´s horn´s parts in orchestral pieces, the hand-horn coul play

if slowly:
(not transposed yet) C-C-E(flat with some help of the hand)-G-C-D(idem)-E(idem)-F-G

if somewhat faster:
C-C-E(idem)-G-A-Bb-B-C-crhomatic afterwards till G

Re: confused about concert keys

Reply #31 –
Horn players still suffer from this in late scores because the scores are ment to be played in period instruments, not modern ones, so, this is like playing a harpischord part in piano, two different instruments.

Re: confused about concert keys

Reply #32 –
I don't know for sure why horn players still transpose at sight, however, being a horn player myself, I just consider it part of the gig! I have to admit though, I have been relieved to find some of my orchestral parts have been transposed to F, at least during the sight-reading portion of rehearsal!

Re: confused about concert keys

Reply #33 –
...the trombone ... stayed in C...
Actually, the trombone is in Bb, but it doesn't transpose.
Doesn't THAT hurt your brain?

Re: confused about concert keys

Reply #34 –
I thought a trombone only had open notes?

Re: confused about concert keys

Reply #35 –
I just want to pass a music test.  I need a chart.
E.g., A b flat instrument is a minor 2nd down. an E flat instrument is a 5th down a F instrument is a perfect 4th down to get to a concert C?

Re: confused about concert keys

Reply #36 –
My question is why are the instruments pitched in different keys to begin
with?  Why is there not one standard key for all instruments?  Actually, my
students want to know and I don't have a good answer.  Anybody - can you
help us?

Re: confused about concert keys

Reply #37 –
OK, I'll start this off.

First, let's note that there is a difference between calling an instrument a "Bb instrument" (e.g. Bb Trumpet, say)  and saying that an instrument is "in Bb" (e.g. Trumpet in Bb).  The two usages are often used interchangably and most times this does not matter.  However, saying an instrument is a Bb instrument is describing a particular piece of hardware, whereas saying an instrument is in Bb really only makes sense when discussing a piece of notation (or, as one might like to think of it, piece of software to be played on the hardware).  In the following discussion I will try to be consistent in referring to "X instrument" to mean hardware and "instrument in X" to mean notation.

Looking at brass instruments, trumpets come in three main sizes Bb, D and Eb.  All Bb trumpets have the same length of tubing.  Similarly all D trumpets have the same length of tubing as each other but that length is shorter than that found in Bb trumpets. The Eb trumpet is shorter still.  The length of the tubing means that the lowest open note (no valves held down) that can be played corresponds to the instrument name.  A Bb trumpet plays a Bb, a D trumpet a D and an Eb an Eb.

Any of the three trumpets could be used to play a piece notated as being for "Trumpet in C" (or "Trumpet at concert pitch").  However, the fingerings used by the player would be different to sound any particular note on the three instruments.  For example, to play a concert E (bottom line of treble clef): Using a Bb Trumpet the player would need to hold down valve 2.  On a D Trumpet the player would need to hold down valves 1&3 and on an Eb valves 1,2&3.

If the piece  was notated for "Trumpet in Bb" then the same fingerings would need to be used to get an E but what would actually be written is a F#.  But let's look at what happens when we write a note that corresponds to each instrument's lowest open note.  When notated for "Trumpet in Bb" the lowest open note on a Bb Trumpet (a Bb remember) is written as middle C.  When notated for "Trumpet in D" the lowest note on a D trumpet is written as middle C and when notated for "Trumpet in Eb" the lowest note on an Eb trumpet is written as (no prizes for guessing this one) middle C.

Next let's look at what happens when we write a note that is two semitones above each instrument's lowest open note.  On the Bb trumpet this is a C#, on the D trumpet an E and on the Eb trumpet an F.  To play these notes the player has to hold down valves 1&3.  If we notate a C# for Trumpet in Bb then the written note is D.  If we notate an E for trumpet in D then the written note is D and if we notate an F for trumpet in Eb then the written note is again D.  The tranposition used in the written parts means that it is the arranger that has to deal with the differently pitched (or differently sized) instruments.  The player just uses a standard set of fingerings with each one corresponding to a particular written note.

This has been particularly useful in the brass band where a player can move between the different instruments using only a single mapping of written note to fingering.  A novice can learn the Bb cornet and then use the same fingerings on an Eb horn or Eb bass or BBb bass.  However, the part he plays has to have been tranposed correctly.

In the woodwinds, the clarinet in Bb and A are quite similar in pitch but here the two instruments are used to get around difficulties in fingerings.  The clarinet overblows in 12ths rather than octaves.  At risk of oversimplification, most other woodwind instruments overblow in octaves and have holes covered by one thumb and three fingers from each hand (seven holes in all) allowing eight different notes to be played (7 holes covered, six, five, four, three, two, one and all open).  The next note up the scale can be obtained by covering all seven holes again and overblowing.  However, on the clarinet there is a large gap from all holes open to all holes closed and overblowing that is filled using a number of keys and some finger gymnastics.

If we now start playing scales in keys away from the natural scale of the instrument we have to use more keys to obtain the sharps or flats that are in the key signature.  On early clarinets the number of keys was very limited and odd forked fingerings were needed.  As the number of sharps or flats increased then finger gymnastics got more and more difficult.  It was much easier to use a clarinet that had a "natural scale" that matched the key of the piece more closely and reduced the number of sharps or flats that needed to be played.  Even with the application of the Boehm system of keywork to the clarinet the little fingers get very overworked when dealing with lots of sharps or flats. Writing a part for a Bb clarinet effectively removes two flats from a key signature.  Writing a part for an A clarinet effectively removes three sharps.  In an orchestral piece if the general key of a section is in B major for example (5 sharps) then it would probably be preferable to write for an A clarinet which would only have two sharps in the key signature.

So, to summarise, there are at least two reasons to use transposing instruments:  standardisation of fingering across a range of instruments and modification of the key singature to reduce the number of sharps or flats.

I'm sure that others can add to this discussion.  A horn player in particular might have some interesting points.

Stephen

Re: confused about concert keys

Reply #38 –
This is fascinating!!!  One comment/question I wanted to add though, and offered have wondered.  I come from a family of musicians, and both my sister and brother have perfect pitch.  I don't, but I have often wondered whether this has anything to do with the fact I play both Clarinet in Bb and piano, so confusing my poor brain as to WHAT a C actually sounds like!!! Do players of transposing instruments ever deveolpe perfect pitch?

Actually, when we first noticed my brother had perfect pitch, he was a semitone out!!!  This was because at the time, our piano was tuned a semitone out.  Once the piano was tuned, gradually his perfect pitch corrected itself.

Concerning the need for instruments to be "transposing", I know when I started at college, I was given the Eb clarinet to play in Symphonic Wind Orchestra (a high clarinet) and the alto clarinet to play in septet.  If I had had to learn a completely new set of fingering for these, I could not have swapped from one to the other so readily.  It would have been like learning a completely new instrument.

Sue

Re: confused about concert keys

Reply #39 –
oooo Fred, I just realised something!!!  You say its in the "concert pitch of Bb", that means that on a piano, organ, anything else that PLAYS in concert pitch in the first place, you just have to find the music in Bb.

(someone might have already said that, but I missed it in all the other discussion on this topic!!!)

Sue

Re: confused about concert keys

Reply #40 –
Just to reword what you've written, Sue, to see if I understand that you've understood:

Fred said he has an arrangement of a tune in the "the concert key of B flat"

If the trumpets are "Bb" trumpets, their parts will be written in C, and it is the organ that will play in Bb.

Let's say one of the trumpets was playing a part in unison with the organ.  Where the organ player reads a note D, the trumpet player will have a part written out that shows E.  When the trumpeter plays his E, it will be the same pitch as the organ's D.

Clear as mud?

Re: confused about concert keys

Reply #41 –
So the answer to my elementary school band would be...
Instruments are pitched in different keys for 2 reasons
1- The way the instrument is made
2- The ease of fingering

What about the ease of reading and writing?  Doesn't this allow for most
notes to be written within the staff lines?

All three of these responses were ideas floated by my students, I think what
you are telling me is that I can tell them they are all correct - Right?
 

Re: confused about concert keys

Reply #42 –
I imagine so, but there's a lot of stuff written for transposing instruments that is in leger line territory.

I think there's an explanation somewhere in this forum about a BBb tuba being named for its "fundamental" (or lowest?) note, and that it actually reads from the bass clef in concert pitch.  Similarly that a Bb trombone plays in concert pitch but its overtones are based on Bb.  It's all beyond me.

These things "just is."  You sort of have to learn by osmosis.  However, if you want to explore it even more, go to  https://forum.noteworthycomposer.com/?topic=432, particularly the middle of the thread.