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Topic: Stem Length for Beamed Notes (Read 3353 times) previous topic - next topic

Stem Length for Beamed Notes

I am a long-time registered user and reader of the forum (since v 1.55).  This matter was broached once before, in message 1193.

To quote Blair Dowden -  “When I compare an NWC score with other printed music, it seems that the stem lengths for beamed notes are longer.  Try this example: 8th note at second F above middle C, 16th notes at first F and G above middle C.  Beam them.”

Another example: 16th notes at second D and F above middle C, 8th note at first G.  Beam them. It seems that the rule is that the inside stem length (i.e. the length between notehead and nearest beam, but excluding both notehead and beam) of the shortest stem of a group of notes, is the width of three spaces.  In the case of the second example above, the 8th note has the shortest stem, but the measurement is to where the beam of a 16th note would have been. It actually looks as though the stem lengths are longer than three spaces, but it can be shown by moving the whole group upwards, that it is actually three spaces.

When there is a lot of movement in both hands, the beams encroach on each other, either between the staves of one system, or between systems.  If one widens the spaces between staves, one gets fewer systems on a page with more page-turns; if one additionally makes the pitch smaller, readability becomes a problem.  (This, although referring to piano music, is also a problem in other types of music.)

Apart from the readability problems mentioned above, most musicians find shorter stem lengths more aesthetically pleasing (or maybe I should only speak for myself and those who commented in the earlier thread, and ask comments from others); anyway overlapping beams are definitely ugly.

Older printed music do not seem to have a simple algorithm to place beams, using a variety of stem lengths, some measured by inside stem length (defined above) and some by outside stem length (including notehead and beam width) and of course, also depending on note value. Sibelius does not seem to use a simple algorithm, but the stem lengths are generally shorter than that of NWC.

I commend NWC on the simplicity of the rule.  It makes for clean, uncluttered and neat beaming. I am, however pleading for shorter stem lengths (only with beamed notes).  My suggestion is that the rule should be that the inside stem length of the shortest note should be 2 notehead spaces, or better still, 1.5 notehead spaces.

IMHO, 1.5 spaces is best, although two beamed 8th notes might look a little cramped; in all other cases it would make for a pleasing appearance.

I am going to post this request on the wish list ( technology permitting).  Meanwhile I would like comments and hopefully support for this suggestion.

Regards,
François de Villiers.

Re: Stem Length for Beamed Notes

Reply #1 –
The rule is simply that the stem length stays the same as the crotchet stem for as many tails or beams as it will take (probably up to demisemiquaver but that is however somewhat a matter of opinion). Then the stems are lengthened just enough for each additional flag/beam.

I've wished for an improvement here in the past, and who knows, if we all shout loud enough the Good Fairy could well appear and grant us our wish.

Re: Stem Length for Beamed Notes

Reply #2 –
What might be the best general solution to this problem would be user-adjustable stem lengths.  Change the lengths of selected stems and the beam will move accordingly.

This might be hard to implement in a usable fashion.  One could imagine dragging beams with the mouse, but Noteworthy's interface paradigm has succeeded so well largely because it has chosen to avoid any drag-and-drop implementation.

Perhaps selecting a note, doing cntl-E edit, and adjusting the stem length (in staff units?) would be sufficient.  A key combination (cntl-shift-meta-alt-arrow???) would be nice, but I think we've just about run out of available keys.

- seb

Re: Stem Length for Beamed Notes

Reply #3 –
Perhaps selecting a note, doing cntl-E edit, and adjusting the stem length in staff units?
That would be so sweet!
Example:  Four eight notes beamed together - C, D, E, F.
The slant of the beam follows the slant of the notes.
Now try C, D, E, G.  The beam is straight, but should look the same as the previous example.
Let's all go to the wish list!

Re: Stem Length for Beamed Notes

Reply #4 –
Another problem that I just noticed is that the stem for a quarter note is one octave long, as it should be, but when a beam is added, it is outside the octave length, rather than inside it.  While that isn't such a big deal (although it doesn't match the x-head font that I made...), sixteenth-note beams should have the second beam further inside, but in NWC they go even further outside, resulting in the excessive length and the "ugliness" mentioned above.
So, even if we never get user-adjustable stem lengths, I would hope that NWO take a closer look at engraved music and try to approximate it more closely.
(And don't get me started on slurs...)
 

Re: Stem Length for Beamed Notes

Reply #5 –
Stem length on beamed notes... Isn't that on the wish list already? It must be, since so many wish for it. Something like 'relative stem length increment for a note (valid only for first or last note of a beam)' where increment can be + or -. Could be handy for detangling beams and lyrics, and there's the old 'just for the hell of it' reason.