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Songwriting Question

Does anyone know how to write a fifties-like song?  I've always wondered what time signature.  (ex.  In The Still Of The Nite)  Is it in 3/4 or 4/4?

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Reply #1 –
Learning some basic music skills would be a good start.

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Reply #2 –
the song you mentioned is in 12/8 or 6/8. but like the guy said, learn some basic music skills first.

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Reply #3 –
You can find sheet music for most of the songs that interest you. Yes, it is still published, and there are on-line vendors of sheet music.

Where I live, the public library also has a sheet music collection, there are music reference books with collections of sheet music, and even an old magazine on the topic.

The sheet music score will not necessarily be the same as what you heard on the radio. But the basic elements can be found.

Be aware that what makes a song good, or popular, often has little to do with the intellectual calibre of its lyrics. Thank goodness! I say that, because whenever someone tells me that for a particular song I should "listen to the message of the lyrics," I know that the music s*cks.

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Reply #4 –
...whenever someone tells me that for a particular song I should "listen to the message of the lyrics," I know that the music s*cks.
Exactly!  If we need to "listen to the message of the lyrics," then it should be a poem, not a song.  If the song doesn't work as an instrumental version, it ain't music!  It's a poem with instrumental accompaniment.
"Mr. Johnson!  I love that song!  Can you arrange it for our band?"
"No.  It won't work."
"C'mon!  We all will practice so hard.  We'll make it sound great!"
[then after playing the arrangement]
"Mr. Johnson, this song s*cks!  Are you sure you know what you're doing?"
"I told you it wouldn't work.  You should believe me next time."

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Reply #5 –
Okay.  You're funny! LOL

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Reply #6 –
Good replies! I was serious, though.

Consider "Cocaine," as performed by Eric Clapton. I don't believe he wrote the lyrics, such as they are. And how many notes are there in the lyrics melody? Two? It is a performance with a great guitar hook, and a great guitar solo, along with some miscellaneous lyrics with a vague message.

On the other hand, if you can get hold of Dylan's "The times, they are a-changing" by either the Byrds or the Seekers (early 60s folk-rock group; they also did "Georgie Girl") then you can see how a "message" song can also be good music. But that's because it was presented by excellent musicians, rather than would I would eupemistically call sincere writers.

Perhaps some of the worst songs I've heard are Psalms set to music, where the composer felt obligated to use the exact words in whichever translation of the Bible was in use. The melody often has to go through contortions to fit in extra syllables, or the beat may fall on a de-emphasized syllable, or an unimportant word may be stretched over several measures to fit. My point is that the more exact the language, the worse the music is bent to fit. The slacker the lyrics (as with "Cocaine), the better the melody.

Amber, that wasn't your question. Sorry about that. But I intuitively feel that you've touched off a long thread.

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Reply #7 –
I think you might be right, Robert - this one will run!
For my two-pennerth (that's Somerset for 2 cents worth!), there is always a compromise between the lyrics and the music, and whatever's written first is invariably the better.
Perhaps that's why the best compromises between lyrics and music are written by singer-songwriters. Take Paul Simon, for example. Now there's a man that can write great lyrics and pretty decent music too!

Robin

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Reply #8 –
I wrote this off-line, but before I paste in my pre-written text, let me note that I firmly agree with the above remark about Paul Simon. Same for Neil Diamond. Now for the canned remarks:

It suddenly occurred to me, about two hours after my last response on this subject, that the original question deserves more thoughtful replies. After all, Noteworthy Composer is an excellent tool for putting a song into readable music form, and hearing how it sounds. Besides, for all we know the person who asked the question is a 10-year old kid who wasn't expecting the tough-guy answers that have appeared so far. So let me start at the top.

First, the technology. The best way to write a song is to sing it. Period.

To help identify where the notes are, a piano keyboard is most useful. Even a cheap electronic keyboard, the kind that is almost a toy, will work, except for adult male low voices (the cheapest keyboards don't have low enough pitch). If you do not have access to a keyboard, get hold of "virtual piano" software for playing notes on your computer. You can also place notes in Noteworthy Composer, and play them, to hear how they sound. In terms of music theory, you ought to know what it means to change a melody from one key to another (transpose).

If your computer has a microphone input, you can find free software on the Internet that will determine the main pitch of a sung note. It will not convert a song into notes. But if you want to know "what pitch am I singing," you can determine the frequency and look up the nearest musical note on a chart. It would be better, though, to sing while plunking piano keys to find the pitch. The kind of microphone used by computers is not the same as the kind used for public address or Karaoke. Computer microphones are cheap, are specifically described as intended for connection to a computer sound card, and are often sold in the same kind of places that sell a broad range of office supplies.

A computer won't help you originate a song, unless you intend certain kinds of music. But a computer, that is NWC, will help you finalize your song.

If you have a tape recorder, record yourself singing snippets of whatever tune comes to mind. Newer digital voice recorders are still very expensive and don't have high sound quality. But they have the advantage of reliable pitch, no rewind, and quick erase.

Now, to non-technical matters, remembering that most great songs were written in the pre-digital era:

What makes a song great? It could be an emotion that we all feel. It could be a catchy tune. It could be something clever. Or, it could be good (instrumental) music that happens to have a vocal accompaniment.

I had the good fortune to grow up in an era when popular vocal music was abundant. Pop music specifically written for teenagers, urban rap, and the like had not appeared. If one happened to live in an area where (as was said in the Blues Brothers movie) they played "both kinds of music" (country and western), there were a lot of good songs. If one happened to live in an American city, as I did, the music played on radio stations was more varied, and included a lot of good songs. What I am saying is that one should listen to songs before writing one, just as would-be authors are advised to read a lot.

Examples abound. But most of them fall into one of two categories: Compelling lyrics put to music, or compelling music with lyrics. Alas, many persons in what I call the "sincere" category believe that their lyrics are compelling, and come up with whatever strum-along music fits the lyrics. The problem is that such "sincere" lyrics often tell others what to do or think, or describe in detail some event. Other persons may not be interested. Worse, if (as often happens) the lyrics don't fit a memorable tune, the songwriter (who is too busy preaching) will not change the lyrics.  I recommend starting with the basic concepts of "I feel good," "I feel bad," "have fun," and use whatever tuneful lyrics fit a good melody -- as few of them as possible.

For examples of songs where words and melody are relatively unified, listen to popular vocal (not rock and roll) music songs by major adult (not teen idol) solo singers. That is, listen to the kinds of song chosen by Barbara Streisand, Edith Piaf, Tony Bennett, early Frank Sinatra.

For examples of songs where a simple idea is expressed with strong music, listen to James Brown's "I feel good," and Elvis Presley's "Hound dog."

For examples of where a detailed story is told, and only succeeds due to the musicianship of the performer, listen to Gordon Lightfoot's "Wreck of the Edmund Fitzgerald." Detailed stories with great, catchy tunes are to be found in Jimmy Buffett's "Margaritaville," and the Beach Boys' "Fun, fun, fun."

And finally, for an example of deliberately distorting lyrics for effect, listen to Bachman Turner Overdrive's "You ain't seen nothing yet."

And for something completely different, the Beatles "Obladi, oblada (Desmond and Molly)" is a silly song made immensely popular, in its time, by the fact that it is a danceable polka. This is a clear example of the melody telling the lyrics what to do.

If you do come up with a good song, don't feel compelled to write a complete instrumental accompaniment. That task has often (not always) been done by persons who specialize in creating accompaniments. Many musicians will not pay much attention to the accompaniment, anyway.

If you do get hold of some sheet music for songs that are familiar to you, be aware that "as performed" may be very different from "as written." For example, the Beach Boy's "California Girls," as written, has a distinct western swing rhythm that is not apparent from the recorded song.

If you don't know what else to do, you might start by taking existing songs, and changing the lyrics. You could not publish such songs. But you would be able to get a feel for what kinds of lyrics fit what kinds of melodies. You will also get a feel for when it is necessary to insert or remove notes or syllables, and a feel for how the accented syllables of  polysyllabic words coordinates with the rhythm. You will learn how to change lyrics so that important words and syllables fall on important notes, but less-important words and syllables fall on less-important notes.

But what do I know? I'm not a songwriter!

Re: Songwriting Question

Reply #9 –
And the winner, at 1,122 words is Reply 8 by Robert A. on 2002-09-17 10:45:58!

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Reply #10 –
Thankx.

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Reply #11 –
Clarification:
"Cocaine" was written by J.J. Cale not Clapton.
"Hound Dog" was written by Loeber and Stoller (pardon the spelling) not Elvis Presley.

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Reply #12 –
Good point, bluesguy. I was aware that J. J. Cale wrote (and performed, elsewhere) "Cocaine" (Eric Clapton once said that if he were a different musician, that's who he would like to be.) And it would have surprised me if Elvis Presley had written any of his songs!

Since the topic was songWRITING rather than performing, I abashedly stand corrected. My proint, expressed at such length, was that a good song does not necessarily have profound meaning; but unless I miss my guess, schools teach youth to put their Profound Thoughts to song.

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Reply #13 –
bob! why the heck did you bother counting the words he wrote?

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Reply #14 –
I was meaning to ask that question, myself. But I'll bet some of you know how many times the Beatles repeated "number nine" in "Revolution #9."

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Reply #15 –
Ah, a more pithy Beatles snippet:

"And thought the holes were rather small, they had to count them all."

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Reply #16 –
I didn't count them.  I copied it to Word and let it do the counting for me.
As to why:  JUST LOOK AT IT!  I mean, C'MON!  It's HUGE!

"And thought the holes were..."
should read:
"And though the holes were..."

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Reply #17 –
The question is, though, how many holes does it take to fill the Albert Hall? ;-)

Robin

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Reply #18 –
One, if the hole is large neough.

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Reply #19 –
Right. Holes that size are for sale in Blackburn, Lancashire. Beware of local traffic, though!

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Reply #20 –
And don't procrastinate. They only have 4000 in stock.

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Reply #21 –
Oh, it's in Lancashire? And all along, I thought it was Lancastershire, but the Brits couln'd pronounce English well enough.

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Reply #22 –
Robert, if you insist on being a language prescriptivist, you might want to familiarize yourself with the correct spelling of contractions. To adopt a superior attitude makes it all the more laughable when you err yourself.

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Reply #23 –
I never errrr.

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Reply #24 –
Do you err what I err?

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Reply #25 –
Ah yes! It's "Err on a Gee string".

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Reply #26 –
If only Mozart knew how dirty that sounds now

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Reply #27 –
He'd probably take it bach.

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Reply #28 –
what are some good hip hop songs that can be played on the guitar??

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Reply #29 –
Play a 9 chord in a repetitive, boring rhythm. Continue for four minutes. There. You've just played every hip-hop song ever written.
 

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Reply #31 –
That's actually my name.
My parents had no idea.
They said there was some singer named John Sebastian in the 70s or 80s that they really liked,
so I got his name.
Imagine my surprise when I found out that brook is the English version of the German word bach...