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Topic: Slurs between grace notes and non-grace notes (Read 6148 times) previous topic - next topic

Slurs between grace notes and non-grace notes

Trying to enter some of Bartok's transcriptions, I came across this:
Slurs from grace notes go into either grace notes or non-grace notes.
Slurs from non-grace notes go into non-grace notes and not grace notes.
This can be demonstrated by:
Code: [Select · Download]
!NoteWorthyComposerClip(2.0,Single)
|Note|Dur:8th,Slur|Pos:0
|Note|Dur:8th,Grace,Slur|Pos:0
|Note|Dur:8th,Grace,Slur|Pos:0
|Note|Dur:8th|Pos:0
!NoteWorthyComposerClip-End
I'm not sure how it should work.

The main workaround I've found involves layering:
First Staff:
Code: [Select · Download]
!NoteWorthyComposerClip(2.0,Single)
|Note|Dur:8th,Slur|Pos:1
|Note|Dur:8th|Pos:1|Opts:Stem=Up,Muted|Visibility:Never
!NoteWorthyComposerClip-End
Second Staff:
Code: [Select · Download]
!NoteWorthyComposerClip(2.0,Single)
|Rest|Dur:8th,Dotted|Visibility:Never
|Note|Dur:8th,Grace|Pos:1
!NoteWorthyComposerClip-End
Changing the value of the hidden rest changes the position of the grace note.  This workaround obviously affects playback.

Any ideas?

Re: Slurs between grace notes and non-grace notes

Reply #1 –
Putting the slurs on their own staff and using digital white-out to fix where the slurs end works fairly well. It can be challenging to get grace notes to vertically align. Grace notes with upflags must be represented on the slur staff by upflag grace notes with StemLength=0

In the attachment, measures 3-4 are the same as 1-2. As you can see, the slurs look acceptable even when the note spacing is expanded to fill the line (within limits).
Registered user since 1996

Re: Slurs between grace notes and non-grace notes

Reply #2 –
This is related.
When it is going from a non-grace note to another non-grace not, with grace note triplets in the middle, bad things can happen.  For example:
Code: [Select · Download]
!NoteWorthyComposerClip(2.0,Single)
|Note|Dur:16th,Dotted|Pos:2|Opts:Stem=Down,Beam=First
|Note|Dur:16th,Dotted|Pos:3|Opts:Stem=Down,Beam=End
|Note|Dur:8th|Pos:4
|Note|Dur:16th,Grace|Pos:3
|Note|Dur:8th,Dotted,Slur|Pos:4
|Note|Dur:16th,Grace|Pos:5
|Note|Dur:4th,Dotted,Slur|Pos:3
|Note|Dur:32nd,Triplet=First,Grace|Pos:2|Opts:Stem=Up,Beam=First
|Note|Dur:32nd,Triplet,Grace|Pos:3|Opts:Stem=Up,Beam
|Note|Dur:32nd,Triplet=End,Grace|Pos:4|Opts:Stem=Up,Beam
|Note|Dur:32nd,Triplet=First,Grace|Pos:3|Opts:Stem=Up,Beam
|Note|Dur:32nd,Triplet,Grace|Pos:2|Opts:Stem=Up,Beam
|Note|Dur:32nd,Triplet=End,Grace|Pos:3|Opts:Stem=Up,Beam=End
|Note|Dur:Half|Pos:2
!NoteWorthyComposerClip-End
The triplet caps shouldn't be pushed up.  Of course, it's not that much of a problem, since grace note triplets don't affect sound much.

There are also many other problems, such as:
Code: [Select · Download]
!NoteWorthyComposerClip(2.0,Single)
|Note|Dur:32nd,Grace,Slur|Pos:1|Opts:Stem=Up,Beam=First
|Note|Dur:32nd,Grace,Slur|Pos:2|Opts:Stem=Up,Beam
|Note|Dur:32nd,Grace,Slur|Pos:1|Opts:Stem=Up,Beam
|Note|Dur:32nd,Grace,Slur|Pos:0|Opts:Stem=Up,Beam
|Note|Dur:32nd,Grace,Slur|Pos:1|Opts:Stem=Up,Beam=End
|Note|Dur:8th,Slur|Pos:0|Opts:Stem=Down,Beam=First
|Note|Dur:16th,Slur|Pos:b-1|Opts:Stem=Down,Beam
|Note|Dur:16th|Pos:-2|Opts:Stem=Down,Beam=End
!NoteWorthyComposerClip-End
Try to get one continuous slur.

Re: Slurs between grace notes and non-grace notes

Reply #3 –
Quote from: kahman –
The triplet caps shouldn't be pushed up. 
Not just a problem with grace notes:
Code: [Select · Download]
!NoteWorthyComposerClip(2.0,Single)
|Note|Dur:8th,Dotted,Slur|Pos:-1|Opts:Stem=Up,Slur=Upward,Beam=First
|Note|Dur:32nd,Triplet=First,Slur|Pos:-1|Opts:Stem=Up,Beam
|Note|Dur:32nd,Triplet,Slur|Pos:-2|Opts:Stem=Up,Beam
|Note|Dur:32nd,Triplet=End,Slur|Pos:-1|Opts:Stem=Up,Beam=End
|Note|Dur:4th|Pos:-2
|Note|Dur:8th,Dotted,Slur|Pos:-1|Opts:Slur=Upward
|Note|Dur:32nd,Triplet=First,Slur|Pos:-1|Opts:Stem=Up,Beam=First
|Note|Dur:32nd,Triplet,Slur|Pos:-2|Opts:Stem=Up,Beam
|Note|Dur:32nd,Triplet=End,Slur|Pos:-1|Opts:Stem=Up,Beam=End
|Note|Dur:4th|Pos:-2
!NoteWorthyComposerClip-End
It seems that brackets avoid slurs but non-bracketed triplet 3's don't. The collision in the second grouping is fine with me. My druthers is that slurs need not avoid brackets

Kalman, I think NWC2 handles your second clip properly. I don't know how I would play one continuous slur differently.

The attachment is from Scriabin's Poem. Slurs pass thru the brackets. It is also a good example of a slur starting on a normal note and ending on a grace note, and a hairpin with a text modifier (poco).
Registered user since 1996

Re: Slurs between grace notes and non-grace notes

Reply #4 –
Quote from: Rick G. –
Not just a problem with grace notes:
Code: [Select · Download]
!NoteWorthyComposerClip(2.0,Single)
|Note|Dur:8th,Dotted,Slur|Pos:-1|Opts:Stem=Up,Slur=Upward,Beam=First
|Note|Dur:32nd,Triplet=First,Slur|Pos:-1|Opts:Stem=Up,Beam
|Note|Dur:32nd,Triplet,Slur|Pos:-2|Opts:Stem=Up,Beam
|Note|Dur:32nd,Triplet=End,Slur|Pos:-1|Opts:Stem=Up,Beam=End
|Note|Dur:4th|Pos:-2
|Note|Dur:8th,Dotted,Slur|Pos:-1|Opts:Slur=Upward
|Note|Dur:32nd,Triplet=First,Slur|Pos:-1|Opts:Stem=Up,Beam=First
|Note|Dur:32nd,Triplet,Slur|Pos:-2|Opts:Stem=Up,Beam
|Note|Dur:32nd,Triplet=End,Slur|Pos:-1|Opts:Stem=Up,Beam=End
|Note|Dur:4th|Pos:-2
!NoteWorthyComposerClip-End
It seems that brackets avoid slurs but non-bracketed triplet 3's don't. The collision in the second grouping is fine with me. My druthers is that slurs need not avoid brackets

Kalman, I think NWC2 handles your second clip properly. I don't know how I would play one continuous slur differently.

The attachment is from Scriabin's Poem. Slurs pass thru the brackets. It is also a good example of a slur starting on a normal note and ending on a grace note, and a hairpin with a text modifier (poco).
The arpeggio shown here is something I might find useful; but I'd like to ask about the "rubato" instruction.  I'm not familiar with its use, but does it pertain to the arpeggio, to what the grace notes steal from it?
 

Re: Slurs between grace notes and non-grace notes

Reply #5 –
Quote from: Susanna –
The arpeggio shown here is something I might find useful; but I'd like to ask about the "rubato" instruction.  I'm not familiar with its use, but does it pertain to the arpeggio, to what the grace notes steal from it?
It is the end of Op. 69, No 1. You can hear it at http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OkXB6ZKHV9U
Sounds to me like the rubato applies to the measure in which it appears. The arpeggio seems fast and regular.
Registered user since 1996