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Realistic Sounds and Embouchure

When you hear Stravinsky's Firebird "Finale" you hear a French Horn-Intro with beautiful Dynamics and fading notes etc. And in Prokofiev's Symphony No. 5 A roaring Tam-Tam (A Orchestrial Gong) in Action. But Noteworthy doesn't seem to have all the realisctic sound and there's no Embouchure for the woodwinds and the brass. I always wanted embouchure and spirit!


Oh, the purcussions is what I care the most because the Timpani doesn't sound loud enough and it's sound is a bit too high, The Cymbals aren't so realistic, Triangles are too soft, no powerful roaring Tam-tam, etc.

I wanted some suggestions on realistic sounds! 

Re: Realistic Sounds and Embouchure

Reply #1 –
The quality of the sounds has nothing to do with NoteWorthy Composer.
The software just process the messages and sends them to your sound device.

There are some ways to improve the sound:

1. Install a Soft Synth.
A software synthesizer with built in samples such as Yamaha's SyXG range which will supply better sound via the audio on your sound device.

2. Use soundfonts
If your soundcard supports soundfonts (mostly Creative soundcards) you can install soundfonts which are portable samples.

3. Use a good quality external keyboard.
Direct the sound output via a MIDI or USB cable to a keyboard with built-in quality sounds (Roland, Korg etc.).

4. Use an external synth module.
Direct the sound output via a MIDI or USB cable to an external synth module like the Ketron SD2.

5. Use a sample library with a VST player.
The sound output is processed internally by routing the MIDI messages through a software player such as Kontakt 2 accessing a sample library like Garritan Personal Orchestra or Jazz & Big Band samples.

The last should give the best result.
For example the JABB library contains an array of brass instrument mute samples (Cup, Straight, Harmon etc) and various articulations (legato, staccato etc.) as well as additional instruments not found in the General MIDI set.

What soundcard do you have in your computer???
If your soundcard supports soundfonts I can send you the Chaos soundfont.
It won't give you the mutes and articulations mentioned above but it will definitely improve your sound.

Here is an example of the 8Mb Chaos soundfont used with the Creative X-Fi Extreme Gamer soundcard.
Soundcard output recorded as an mp3 file.
http://tinyurl.com/2rq3rh/TheSwinger.mp3
(2.9 Mb download).

---------------
Barry Graham
Melbourne, Australia

Re: Realistic Sounds

Reply #2 –
 Hi there...  you wonderful musicos !   :)

Some time back, I bought that SD2 and I must really say that I fell in love with its sounds. It's almost impossible to get these sorts of quality sounds from INTERNET d/l sites. Apart from that I'm musically very demanding, for I know all too well what a great sound can/should sounds like and anything less is just not making me happy. Only now I discovered that if I get the right sound then this one will do me forever... or longer. Thus, the SD2 delivered quite a number of these hotly desired quality sounds.
I always had a weakness for K. Wunderlich's Wersi and Tyros style sounds (even got a personal letter from the great organist).

Yet, living in an underdeveloped country, I learned to improvise my musical dreams with homemade gadgets: from Poland I bought a cheap keyboard encoder and so, build my own MIDI keyboard with cheap PC switches from an electronics surplus store.
The thing I did with the Ketron SD2 was quite interesting, though. (A poor bugger's resolution!)
I used SampleRobot to convert all interesting sounds to (truly) perfect Sf2 soundfonts and then sold the SD2 again (!) ...of course at a lower price. The difference was the price I had to pay to get my hands onto these great sounds (at least, that's how I justified it to my wife...  Grin) Jeez, I wished there would be a way of swapping great Wersi/Tyros. I would be happy to enjoy them just as SF2, for I'm not too keen on articulations.

Also, I earned myself a copy of Live-Styler.de accompaniment, by translating their user manual. Hence that, together with SD2 sounds gets me pretty near the "real Mc Coy". That's certainly one way of getting there cheaply, isn't it? 
Maybe I should do the same with some other sound modules? Would you have an idea what other modules I should aim at?
The seemingly only drawback with SF2 is that it cannot create articulation switches, but SD2 didn't have much of it it either and still sounds convincingly realistic. Besides, I don't believe that the lateral noises and imperfections are really necessary to emulate a known instrument. I prefer the best of tonal quality an instrument is capable to produce and am less keen on its side effects.

Far more important is how effectively volume and tremolo variations are applied. Accordion players (for instance) apply volume and tremolo variations very effectively with the bellow; unlike keyboard players, i.e. wished there would be a similarly effective way for keyboard players. Touch sensitivity and/or after-touch isn't quite the same.
For instance, when I whistle to music (Hear me blowing up here: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eQpI6RsPo8k
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oNoG4-vowBM ), I apply various tremolo and dynamic variations very efficiently.
Actually, that alone already introduces rich emotional creative values (the soul) into the music. Of course an interesting sounding instrument enhances the overall performance considerably and lends realism. On the other hand, poor dynamic variations merely enhance the "robotics" of a melody. 
I'm as well toying around with the idea of "equalizing" the traditional ("zebra") piano Kbd, in the way Paul von Jankó (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Janko_keyboard) has done, but basically sticking to the piano Kbd pattern of today's pianos.
 I cannot see why it is not possible to equalize all keys in size and heights!! I plan to go even a step further by implementing longish, hexagonal button keys. That allows adding 2 Kbds in parallel in the same space of a normal piano Kbd. Jankó's idea was to equalize the Kbd and so, my idea is getting pretty close to Jankó's.

-> An (in size and heights) equalized Kbd allows me to learn only one pattern in Maj and one in Min (for right & left hand) in order to play all 24 Maj & Min scales, whereas the grossly irregular, traditional "zebra" piano Kbd requires us to learn 48 different fingering patterns (for both hands)!!!

Greetings, from Joh enjoying musical creativity in a little town down-under in the Chilean Andes...   :)
Email: jdrinda@hotmail.com

Re: Realistic Sounds and Embouchure

Reply #3 –
As Barry said, the sounds your computer produces from NWC have nothing whatsoever to do with NWC. NWC produces MIDI output. Most people don't realize this, but MIDI isn't music. It's just a set of instructions to your soundcard to tell it what notes to play and what electronic (fake) instruments to play them on. The quality of the electronic (fake) instruments varies greatly from soundcard to soundcard, but most of them are pretty vile; I don't believe there is a single computer out there that comes with decent sound right out of the box. You have to add it. Soundcards by Creative are pretty good, but not excellent; at least one of these, the current version of the SB Live!, is a standalone module that plugs into a USB port, so you don't even have to open a computer. They also make a card or two that you can plug into a PC Card slot on a laptop, which is the way I've personally solved the problem. However, if you want excellent, my advice is to go for Garritan Personal Orchestra. Costs about $300, but it's worth every penny. I don't have it (just wish I did), but I have a friend who does, and I have to ask him whether its live or Garriton every time he brings a CD to our composers' group. It uses sampled sounds, not electronically generated sounds, and the quality of the samples is superb. Downside is that each piece takes a great deal of time to score, with extra instructions just about every measure.

Cheers,

Bill

Re: Realistic Sounds and Embouchure

Reply #4 –
Quote
that alone already introduces rich emotional creative values (the soul) into the music

Last week I went to a concert with three theremin.
If you really want to have such a deep control on the instrument why not to learn to play theremin?

You must be very skillful to avoid too much portamento (too much is boring), but the result, with a really good theremin, is that you have a "human" vocalize that doesn't need to take breath and easily spans 5 octaves...

The most amazing thing was to look at a video in which Pamelia Kurstin played a left-handed theremin using the hands in the very same way as if she was playing a one-stringed contrabass.
The walking bass with a theremin... incredible!

N.B. I think I'd would feel easier to play theremin with pitch on the left and volume on the right. Why? I don't know, maybe violin, banjo or guitar heritage.

Re: Realistic Sounds

Reply #5 –
Quote from: jjj –
Greetings, from Joh living in a little town down-under in the Chilean Andes...   :)
Facinating post, Joh

It it useful to know that the sounds from a Ketron can be converted to sf2.

I toyed with the idea of building a MIDI keyboard, but I bought a non-working 4 octave one for $10USD and fixed it. A broken trace on the printed circuit board ...
Registered user since 1996

Re: Realistic Sounds and Embouchure

Reply #6 –
Theremin

...seems getting even more interesting now that it can be used to drive a wave to MIDI converter and so, play any MIDI controlled soundfont/ instrument, such as sax, flute, trumpet, violin, cello etc... or am I wrong here?
Please correct me.
Sadly this "Software Community" does not notify me if anyone posts so, please send me an email. Thx   :)

Re: Realistic Sounds and Embouchure

Reply #7 –
Quote from: jjj –
Sadly this "Software Community" does not notify me if anyone posts so, please send me an email. Thx   :)

Well, in this community it's rare that more than a day passes without a post so, IMO, a warning mail soon becomes annoying.

If you log in before reading the messages, the messages you alredy read are marked as such so the next time you log in you can spot at a glance what's new.
I find this very useful.

Re: Realistic Sounds and Embouchure

Reply #8 –
Quote from: Barry Graham –
The quality of the sounds has nothing to do with NoteWorthy Composer.
The software just process the messages and sends them to your sound device.

There are some ways to improve the sound:

1. Install a Soft Synth.
A software synthesizer with built in samples such as Yamaha's SyXG range which will supply better sound via the audio on your sound device.

2. Use soundfonts
If your soundcard supports soundfonts (mostly Creative soundcards) you can install soundfonts which are portable samples.

3. Use a good quality external keyboard.
Direct the sound output via a MIDI or USB cable to a keyboard with built-in quality sounds (Roland, Korg etc.).

4. Use an external synth module.
Direct the sound output via a MIDI or USB cable to an external synth module like the Ketron SD2.

5. Use a sample library with a VST player.
The sound output is processed internally by routing the MIDI messages through a software player such as Kontakt 2 accessing a sample library like Garritan Personal Orchestra or Jazz & Big Band samples.

The last should give the best result.
For example the JABB library contains an array of brass instrument mute samples (Cup, Straight, Harmon etc) and various articulations (legato, staccato etc.) as well as additional instruments not found in the General MIDI set.

What soundcard do you have in your computer???
If your soundcard supports soundfonts I can send you the Chaos soundfont.
It won't give you the mutes and articulations mentioned above but it will definitely improve your sound.

Here is an example of the 8Mb Chaos soundfont used with the Creative X-Fi Extreme Gamer soundcard.
Soundcard output recorded as an mp3 file.
http://tinyurl.com/2rq3rh/TheSwinger.mp3
(2.9 Mb download).

---------------
Barry Graham
Melbourne, Australia


For starters, I am a total newb to this.  I would like somewhere to start or a point in the right direction.

I use nwc to write up the various parts (SATB) for our small church choir, save to a mid file and then convert it to mp3 (or wav) to create audio cds for members to practice their parts.

I am limited by the sound bank on my onboard sound Realtek ACL850 (AC 97 compliant).  The sound quality is not that good. 

What is the easiest (read cheapest) way around this?  Buying a decent sound card that has a pretty good sound bank - if so, suggestions?  Or buying software that has the sound samples so when I do convert the file over it is played through the samples and produces a good sounding file?  Is there an open source solution for windows or linux that would do the trick?

I did google this and the amount of information is overwhelming.  Where do I start for the basic task I need to accomplish?  I barely understand the basics ... midi is handed off to your systems midi for playback.  

Any help would be greatly appreciated.

David

Re: Realistic Sounds and Embouchure

Reply #9 –
G'day David,
first, welcome to the forum.  Now, perhaps this might help:
https://forum.noteworthycomposer.com/?topic=6528.0

Otherwise, using the standalone Synthfont product could also be useful.  Regardless, access to soundfonts no matter how you do it will help your sounds.
I plays 'Bones, crumpets, coronets, floosgals, youfonymums 'n tubies.
 

Re: Realistic Sounds and Embouchure

Reply #10 –
Lawrie,

Thanks for the direction.  I have download both the synthfont and the other stuff from the dummie link as well as a couple of soundbanks.  I'll give it a go and see how it works out.

Thanks,
David