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Topic: Noteworthy-Source-Code !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! (Read 13718 times) previous topic - next topic

Noteworthy-Source-Code !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Good day, Noteworth'ler!

My name is Anne-Sophie, and I'am a german professional programmer.
I'd be very interested in Noteworthy's source code. I suggest
that it's written in C++. I have got so many ideas of extending
your Noteworthy Composer. Maybe it would be possible to create
a kind of an easy "Upper (NTW) Language" in which all users are able
to bring their own implementations into Noteworthy Composer, so
that all can participate in constructing a better Noteworthy
without knowing how to program in C++ (eg. like in AutoCAD, Excel, Word Basic).

Best regards, Anne-Sophie

Re: Noteworthy-Source-Code !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Reply #1 –
That would be awesome! Then we could tailor-make NWC to work
with our equipment optimally.
For example: I have Yamaha XG and I sure wish I could access
more of the capabilities of the synth from within
NoteWorthy itself, although that in itself might take quite
a bit of work for the programmers to implement (especially
just for me) with a 5th generation language in
NWC anyone could easily personally add the needed features
to NWC and then distribute their modules to others...

Re: Noteworthy-Source-Code !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Reply #2 –
Leave Noteworthy alone! Eric's doing just fine without any help thank you !

S.

Re: Noteworthy-Source-Code !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Reply #3 –
I agree with both points presented here
1) Noteworthy is a GREAT program without any other implementations
2) There are just a few things I would like to see in the program, and
with the source code, it would be possible much faster than waiting for
the next upgrade.

I doubt that Noteworthy will release the code, but it would be a neat addition.

Re: Noteworthy-Source-Code !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Reply #4 –
I think that if I wrote a program such as NWC, I would be a bit offended by some of the users saying, basically, that the program wasn't good enough, and 'I could make it better'. This may sound a bit of track, but a few years ago, I had a CD player that I decided to pull apart, and 'make better'. (It didn't have a scan function on it.) In the process, I damaged the lens and ended up with a piece of junk. I guess what I am trying to say is, if something is meant to be in NWC, Eric will put it there, it's not up to us to do so. In the mean time there are plenty of work arounds from all sorts of users that we can use.
Adam

Re: Noteworthy-Source-Code !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Reply #5 –
I guess the programmer part of me comes out with ideas like this. I've sent lots of big and intricate ideas into Eric (and even seen a few implemented, thanx!) and often tried to second guess what he was up to.
The bottom line is, tho', if it's not written with user-extensions in mind, it'll be fiendishly hard to retrofit, and so will probably never happen, which is a shame, but one I'm prepared to live with.
Just one example: I'd love to fiddle with where NWC kicks a "new line" (staff "justification" or something like that, an issue discussed several times before. Now to actually code something to do that would be non-trivial, even if all the hooks were in place to do it. Best if Eric does it (and SOON! ;)
That sort of stuff normally involves a major rewrite, though I'm sure that modular object-oriented programming makes the task easier.
In short, it'd be real neat for all us retired programmers, but probably a headache for Eric trying to stop us damaging the lens!

A

Re: Noteworthy-Source-Code !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Reply #6 –
It depends which you prefer: a smorgasbord or the contents of a dustbin. One person controlling the specification and programming quality equals smorgasbord; end users fiddling about with code equals contents of dustbin. The job of end users is to keep the suggestions and money flowing. Perhaps if NWC were to charge for upgrades then it might be possible to invest more in programming.

Re: Noteworthy-Source-Code !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Reply #7 –
Here is another computer programmer writing and I have enough difficulty adding code to my old code when the 'users' decide that they want something different.

When I have to add code to other people's work the problems just get compounded.

I can see instances where hooks might be useful but once implemented, would be a nightmare to support and also to introduce new ideas- you could never re-write that part of the code in a different way if you have to ensure that everything your users had written would still work.
All things being equal then - although I would also love to get my hands on the source code, I would fully support Eric in not releasing it.

In fact, I would be quite happy to support Peter Crossley's 'charge for upgrades' idea if it would enable Eric to incorporate more wish list items into the program at a faster rate. I have got far more value from Noteworthy than I have from programs which cost far more and so would be happy to pay for major upgrades.

Keep up the good work Eric. Thanks

Richard

Re: Noteworthy-Source-Code !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Reply #8 –
Briefly, Anne-Sophie :
deine Idee ist ein gut Versuch, aber unwirklich. (Let's go on in English for other ppl)
First, if Eric does publish the NWC source code (even to only some external programmers) you can bet that within 2 months a musical notator software will appear on the market. "indpired of"...
2nd, many of us have already proposed their knowledge and skills to Eric. He declined (very politely) all these proposals, and IMHO he's right. Even if I still wish to make the french version of NWC/NWP, as others want to in Polish, Russian, and so on.
3rd, Eric does his work fine. He realized many users' (even unreg'd users') wishes, and I bet that next version (1.6 or 1.52 ?) will realize other wishes plus some enhancements which he keeps secret and amze us each time.
4th, Peter, John, Richard, Andrew are right. It would be great to fiddle with the source code --be they in C, C++, ADA, lisp or whatever-- to implement our own features. But that would give many different versions that would be not compatible. Just think of µ$oft Word and its enormous bugs/GPF and you'll see what I mean!
5th, we all want to give Eric some ideas already implemented. Never had a headache integrating others' pieces of code ? Cross your fingers then, and I wish you to go on like that.

Yes, that would be great to be able to customise NWC at our will. A game named Abuse (look at it at http://www.abuse.com)) proposed the same. Many few people did it though. Is it because it's in Lisp ? I doubt.
Take the time to read quietly the whole forum. Download the offline version, it's worth the try.

Hab Mut und viel Spaß !

P.S. Hope you didn't found my reply too aggressive. What I'm trying to say is that Eric does a GREAT work. I think we should leave him alone to drive NWC where HE wants. But you can send wish as often as you want. And even tell here which you'd like, in order that other users wish them too :-)

Dominique

Re: Noteworthy-Source-Code !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Reply #9 –
1) First of all:
If I read all the noteworhty user's wishes,
I can see, that there is an urgent need to make noteworthy
even betten than it is.
It is paradox, how some of the users react:
On the one hand they pray to their noteworthy and its
inventors (Eric a.s.o.) like in church,
on the other hand you can read hundreds of suggestions and critics
showing, that everyone who complains, wish to have to better
noteworthy composer.

In comparison to professional notation programs
(finale, encore and sibelius 7 a.s.o.) noteworthy composer
is easy to use, but a little small and <static> in very important
functions. Even if you look at nwc-file-format, you can see and
understand, why realization of very good users ideas it
complicate to manage (n-tupels e.g.), because the format itself
could not store the data of it. (Reserve some bits for the
information of a triplet, so you are not able to generalize
to n-tuplets without changing the file-compatibility.)

2) The idea to let people participate in updating a product,
and even bringing more good ideas into it is not new and not
a silly one.
Think of what Linus Torvald iniated with his wourldwide well-
known LINUX. Linux (very cheap UNIX)'s main concept is to be
distributed entirely with the source-code! Thousands of people
helped to make LINUX better and better. This is the power and
the speed of an adequate developement of software.
Their are also shareware-distributions of LINUS to be payed
for it as well.
(Also <netscape> indicated to publish its navigator's
source-code for all users!)

But even if the source-code of noteworthy would stay with
noteworthy, the idea to create an "upper language", in
which one can program new applications, plug ins,
for a product is very good and has already been practiced.

Your
Christian

Re: Noteworthy-Source-Code !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Reply #10 –
I agree that there are two types of software, but I would say that many end users are interested in dealing with a company which has a good product at a good price, can speak with some authority on its content and capabilities, be open to suggestions, deliver on its up-grade promises and fix bugs expeditiously. There is obviously a market among those who want to buy lego kits but I am not part of it.

Re: Noteworthy-Source-Code !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Reply #11 –
Hi there, I agree with Adam (I'm too busy to read the rest right now).
Firstly, NoteWorthy is great.
There are a few things that can easily be added.
However, there need to be some balance in how the future
of NoteWorthy Composer is managed. I would like to see NoteWorthy
have a few more features that would make it the best in the marketplace.
Can NoteWorthy remain shareware and at the same time become the perfect
tool for beginners and professionals alike? Yes, I believe it can.
What is the limitation to whether more features are added to
NoteWorthy? Time/money/expertise?

Forget handing out the source code.

I say invest a few thousand into getting the features into
(and tested in) Noteworthy, and do so in a business-like manner,
ie: okay, we will pay 1000 to get it up to level X and
increase the registration fee by 10%. We will cover this cost
if we sell the same number of licences we have been selling over
the next three months.
Personally, I think NoteWorthy is the best piece of software
ever written. I'm sure thousands of people have learnt more
with Noteworthy Composer about music (and notation) than any
other piece of software around.
(if NoteWorthy needs help in promoting NoteWorthy Composer to
get more sales, just ask :)

Re: Noteworthy-Source-Code !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Reply #12 –
There are three options:
1) Release the source code. This benefits a very few people with a lot of time on their hands, some of whom will use it to compete with Noteworthy. Not a good idea.
2) Re-write the code so it presents a set of interfaces people can use. Fine idea, but the (large amount of) time spend doing this is time taken away from providing the features we all want.
3) Provide some sort of macro language. Similar to 2, much more useful, but is it our first priority? Not mine. I would love to have it, but there are basic things I want much more.

Re: Noteworthy-Source-Code !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Reply #13 –
"Dem" in his wisdom says above:

"I'm sure thousands of people have learnt more
with Noteworthy Composer about music (and notation) than any
other piece of software around."

Personally I could not agree more. I was a total novice when it came to read and write music when I first got my hands on a copy of NWC back in 90-something, believe it was version 1.1. Then I hooked my SB sound card into my computer and was amazed by how those little red dots moved over the screen and actual music came out of the speakers. Gee, I learnt what I know about music with NWC as my teacher!

So "Dem", there are now 1001 of us. ;-)

I have also tried a few other music notation programs, Finale being one, but I always return to NWC. Why? Because it has everything I need and it's extremely easy to use. Even my neighbor who has very little computer knowledge, although being a professional musician, can use the program with ease, and she says the same: NWC is great to use because it's so easy to write music in it.

I guess this tells a little about how two "differently educated novices" can use the same program, and get something out from it.

This NWC software is probably developed in some C version of some kind which I know nothing about, I speak Borland Delphi Pascal, but as a programmer ( sortta ;) I can only say:
Leave the code in Eric's hands. It assures for the best handling of the code - this he has already proven!

Best wishes,
Quivis.

Re: Noteworthy-Source-Code !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Reply #14 –
regarding general release of source code - Don't be silly! Your registration
is a license to use the product. There are such things as source
licenses, but they are usually an order of magnitude or two over
the right to use license.

Regarding "pay for upgrade", I'd happily pay another registration
fee for a version of Noteworthy that contained rest compression
(with user defineable grouping), per stave user defined page turns
and global substitution of enharmonic spellings.

Leave the source code in Eric's capable hands.

Re: Noteworthy-Source-Code !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Reply #15 –
John and Richard, Hear Hear!!

I couldn't agree more - I too have to think hard when returning to programs I haven't altered for a while, and they are relatively simple - nowhere near the complexity of NWC. Even the best annotated and 'modularised' code for a program as comprehensive as NWC is going to require a huge amount of preparatory work before attempting any modifications. I said in an earlier thread that we sholdn't take NWC for granted just because it's inexpensive - if it was $390 instead of $39 would one be so keen to fiddle?? Not I - I'll leave it in Eric's capable hands, and thank my lucky stars that he looks after us as well as he does!

Re: Noteworthy-Source-Code !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Reply #16 –
As to people 'kneeling and praying to Eric' and then praising NWC for what it is already.... I havn't done that. I like NWC. It's great, it's brilliant, excuse my language but for usability it s**ts on Finale and Encore. Please people, I am not a rich man. Leave well enough alone, I can't afford 'another' expensive program.
Adam
"Close enough for Jazz...": every musician when tuning up. :-)

Re: Noteworthy-Source-Code !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Reply #17 –
Brilliance can be improved...WITHOUT handing out the source code!

There's nothing wrong with saying: "Eric, your program is the BEST...and, it can be made even better!"

Re: Noteworthy-Source-Code !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Reply #18 –
What does Eric and current users think of this:
"Perhaps if NWC were to charge for upgrades then it might be possible to invest more in programming."

Re: Noteworthy-Source-Code !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Reply #19 –
I think that $ is not sufficient. It may help of course :) : "L'argent ne fait pas le bonheur mais il y contribue" (old proverb) I dunno when the version 2 of NWC will appear. I only hope that the improvements will be amazing. And that it will be for 16bit systems too!!
Trying to reduce worktime duration per week in France does not provide further employments in many many cases.
Having more dough would not necessarily mean having some more programmers and do quicker jobs.
'Chi va piano va sano', say Italian ppl. Eric's programming is an almost bug-free result. That's good enough, it becomes so rare !

But I'm sure we all would like to have Eric's opinion about all this. At least to close the discussion which could last forever...

May the wisdom be with you
                                  MAD
 

Re: Noteworthy-Source-Code !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Reply #20 –
One thing that strikes me, now that Marsu mentions it --- I've used Noteworthy for hundreds of hours and it's never crashed!

Eric, you are a legend!