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Topic: Unexpected tie behaviour. (Read 3704 times) previous topic - next topic

Unexpected tie behaviour.

I wanted to tie three quarter notes of the same pitch within the same bar, to indicate a phrase marking.

I was surprised to find that I can only tie two notes at any time, leaving me with ugly little hills between each pair.  I then tested this over a bar line, trying to tie 3 bars of whole notes, and again the tie only extended from one to the next.  The tie from the second whole note to the last one starts all over.

The slur is not a satisfactory workaround if the last note of the group has an articulation marking - you end up with that artillery-shot skewed arc from source to target, and it's not right.

I would appreciate having the ability to tie groups of notes, larger than a pair, with the start and end points of the curve being the source and final notes in the group.  Please?

This might also restore the lengthy audible warning when there was a hanging tie.

Re: Unexpected tie behaviour.

Reply #1 –
David, the ties are behaving exactly as they're supposed to.  So are the slurs.  What we really need is the third in the "standard-series-of-curvy-lines": phrases.

I'd hate to give up the current behaviour of ties and slurs.  Perhaps if there was an optional check-box?

There have been times where I'd like all three - in vocal music.  Here phrase marks tend to indicate breathing, slurs tend to indicate changed pitch for a single syllable, and ties simply lengthen a note.

You might have to resort to the standard beautiful/cacophonious-visible/muted staff versus the ugly/euphonious-hidden/sounding copy trick.  You'll probably have to use the "lyrics always/never" options on the visible staff, if you're using them.

Re: Unexpected tie behaviour.

Reply #2 –
Hi Ewan,

I'm only copying out an ancient marching band part that's too small and crowded for me to read, so I'm not too worried about the appearance, as long as it is understandable.  The playback isn't an issue since I only use it to help proofread, rather than producing midi files.

In band music, the same phrasing as you describe holds true.  I almost agree with what you wrote, except the slur behaviour doesn't quite work properly, since the ending point on a stem down note is near the notehead as in bar 2 of this example.  However I can live with what happens in Bar 4.

Code: [Select · Download]
!NoteWorthyComposerClip(2.0,Single)
|Bar
|Key|Signature:F#,C#,G#,D#
|Rest|Dur:Half
|Rest|Dur:4th
|Note|Dur:8th,Dotted,Tenuto|Pos:n1|Opts:Stem=Down,Beam=First
|Note|Dur:16th,Slur,Accent|Pos:0^|Opts:Stem=Down,Beam=End
|Bar
|Note|Dur:Half,Slur|Pos:0
|Note|Dur:4th,Slur|Pos:b0
|Note|Dur:8th,Dotted|Pos:-1|Opts:Stem=Up,Beam=First
|Note|Dur:16th,Accent|Pos:-2|Opts:Stem=Up,Beam=End,ArticulationsOnStem
|Bar
|Rest|Dur:Half
|Rest|Dur:4th
|Note|Dur:8th,Dotted,Tenuto|Pos:n1|Opts:Stem=Down,Beam=First
|Note|Dur:16th,Slur,Accent|Pos:0^|Opts:Stem=Down,Beam=End
|Bar
|Note|Dur:Half,Slur|Pos:0
|Note|Dur:4th,Slur|Pos:b0
|Note|Dur:8th,Dotted,Slur|Pos:-1|Opts:Stem=Up,Beam=First
|Note|Dur:16th,Accent|Pos:-2|Opts:Stem=Up,Beam=End,ArticulationsOnStem
|Bar
!NoteWorthyComposerClip-End
During the private beta test NWC gave us a taste of a controllable slur - you could set the height of the beginning and the end points, and you could also push the line up and down so you had complete control over the shape of the curve.  Part of this was implemented - sort of.  You can control the shape of the curve a little by prodding it upwards with a hidden, muted grace note, which won't affect the number of beats in the bar.  By the way, I don't think NWC ever actually perfected the controllable slur - it only worked on the desktop, not on a staff.

What I've asked for in the wish list, if memory serves me correctly, is a line drawing feature that gives me a single line, that can be thick, thin, crinkled, dotted or dashed, that would be flat by default but could be prodded into a curve, and whose end points could be set manually.  Obviously it would be a nightmare to program all the possible effects on playback, but as I say, playback is not my thing.  I only care about the graphics.

Thanks for your feedback.
David

Re: Unexpected tie behaviour.

Reply #3 –
To make slurs or ties between two notes less unsightly, I expand the distance between them.

Re: Unexpected tie behaviour.

Reply #4 –
Yes, I see what you mean.  Adding an invisible grace note doesn't help at all.  I tried an invisible hemi-demi-semiquaver (64th note), on the second leger line above, stem down.  It's passable, but will stuff up play-back.  You'd have to add the same amount of time in every other part, and probably adjust the tempo before and after.

It's not ideal, as it means you'd have to remember about this "fix" if you change the tempo or transpose, and re-adjust manually.

(I find dotted minim/half = 750 is good when you want to race through a tiny section.  It's also good when you're playing in using <F4>.  Start super-fast, and slow down to the correct speed - or even slower - just a little before you need to append the new notes!)

Re: Unexpected tie behaviour.

Reply #5 –
I'm not home at the moment (be back in about a week), so I can't post any examples--sorry.

You can push the ends of the slur up or down using rather ugly layered constructs.  Basicly, you need three staves, one for the sound, two for the look.  It is relatively easy if the notes are not beamed.  You need to "hide" (mark as "never visable" or set stem length to zero, no head, and color to white) the note to be adjusted on one of the layers, and hide all the other notes on the other layer.  Then raise or lower the invisable note until the end of the slur is where you want it.  Only the layer with the hidden note is slured, the other isn't.  The tricky part (and without some of my own examples I don't remember the exact rules) involves either beamed notes or notes where the first note must be moved.  The problem in the second case it that the "never visable" property of the first of a set of slurred notes makes the slur invisable, so you need the zero-stem, no head, color white trick, which makes the adjusted note very hard to locate later.

Once I get home I'll post some examples.  BTW, the same trick can be used, adjusting non-endpoint notes, to make a slur higher (or lower) in the middle, to keep it from clipping the corner of a set of beamed notes.

Cyril

Re: Unexpected tie behaviour.

Reply #6 –
Try moving the grace notes in this example, observe the effect on the arc.

Code: [Select · Download]
!NoteWorthyComposerClip(2.0,Single)
|Note|Dur:8th,Slur|Pos:0
|Note|Dur:8th,Slur|Pos:0
|Note|Dur:8th,Grace|Pos:12|Opts:Stem=Down|Visibility:Never
|Note|Dur:8th|Pos:0
|Rest|Dur:8th
|Note|Dur:8th,Slur|Pos:-1
|Note|Dur:8th,Slur|Pos:-1
|Note|Dur:8th,Grace|Pos:-6|Opts:Stem=Up|Visibility:Never
|Note|Dur:8th|Pos:-1
|Rest|Dur:8th
!NoteWorthyComposerClip-End
 

Re: Unexpected tie behaviour.

Reply #7 –
Well, late but not never.  I'm home and getting caught up on things.  I'm posting a NWC file on the NWC2 newsgroup with examples of slurs which have had the ends raised.  I'm doing this way because it involves three layered staves.  The file is Brighton Camp.