Skip to main content ↑ ↓
Topic: Weird chord change (Read 5231 times) previous topic - next topic

Weird chord change

In one of the charts in my swing book, I have an “open” section with chord changes written in.
During the course of the solo, I have a G-flat six-nine chord (I know what that is), and later on I have a G-flat Major-seventh chord (I know what that is, too).
At one point, however, I have a G-flat six-nine Major-seventh chord. Anyone ever seen one of these before?
Should I just assume G-flat Major-thirteenth, or is there a different function to it?

Re: Weird chord change

Reply #1 –
It wouldn't have the 11th (C) in it, which a G major thirteenth would, at least theoretically. It might also be implied that the sixth should be voiced in the middle of the chord, not near the top.

Sometimes I've seen bitonal chords notated in various ways, though this isn't a good example - this one of yours combines a G major seventh and a C major triad, though any chord of more than three notes can be said to contain two triads, in a way.

Re: Weird chord change

Reply #2 –
oops, wrong key. I meant your chord doesn't have a c FLAT in it, and so on. I was thinking G major.

Re: Weird chord change

Reply #3 –
I may be wrong, but I think many times the eleventh is left out in a thirteenth chord. With 9th chords people rarely include the 7th. *shrugs* but whatever.

Re: Weird chord change

Reply #4 –
I'd say it was a thirteenth chord with the seventh on top (possibly) and without the 11th.
-j

Re: Weird chord change

Reply #5 –
The question is whether G-flat six-nine Major-seventh is the same as G-flat Major-thirteenth. The answer is "no", mainly because of the interval of the seventh, which changes the functionality of the chord (as well as the sound). Start by comparing G-flat-7 (Gb/Bb/Db/Fb) with G-flat-Major-seventh (Gb/Bb/Db/F). The former has the function of a DOMINANT chord and is most likely to be seen as the V7 chord in the key of Cb, where Gb is the 5th (dominant) scale degree. The latter has the function of a TONIC chord, and is more likely to be seen in the key of Gb as the I chord in a jazz voicing. The final chord in a jazz piece in Gb might be Gb (pretty tame), Gb-six (a little more colorful), Gb-Major-seventh (very distinctive), and Gb-six-nine (really grabs you). Your chord seems to combine the qualities of both of the last two: Gb/Bb/Db/F and Gb/Bb/Db/Eb/Ab (all 5 black keys on the keyboard!), making Gb/Bb/Db/Eb/F/Ab. The voicing is probably touchy. Again note that this is a TONIC chord. You would never use (or find) Gb7 as the final chord in any key, as the minor seventh from Gb to Fb signals a DOMINANT function, not a TONIC.

Now we can jump to the question of 13th chords. Any chord such as C13, G13, Gb13, etc., is a DOMINANT chord, that is, it is a C7, G7, Gb7, etc., with an added 9th, 11th, and 13th. The important point is that the 7th is a MINOR-7th, NOT a MAJOR-7th! The added notes create a more colorful sound, but do not change the functionality of the DOMINANT feature.

In particular, Gb-six-nine-Major-seventh has Gb/Bb/Db/Eb/F-natural/Ab and will function as a colorful TONIC (rest) chord, while Gb-13 has Gb/Bb/Db/Fb/Ab/Cb/Eb and will function as a DOMINANT (begging to resolve to something else) chord. The important tone is the SEVENTH.

It might be thought that saying Gb-Major-13th would affect the seventh, but that is not my understanding from many decades of using chords. Something like Gb-Minor-13th means that the THIRD is lowered, so that the basic TRIAD is Gb-Minor (Gb/Bbb/Db), not Gb-Major (Gb/Bb/Db). Gb-Major-13th just sounds like a redundant way of saying Gb-13th, affirming that the 3rd is Major. Another example is Gb-6th (Gb/Bb/Db/Eb) vs. Gb-Minor-6th (Gb/Bbb/Db/Eb); note that the "minor" designation applies to the THIRD, not the SIXTH.

Well, that's kind of "wordy", but I hope it is useful. It sure would have been easier talking about G chords rather than Gb!!

I always find it intriguing that the added 9th, 11th, and 13th are just the (diatonic) passing tones that were skipped over when the original chord was formed: scale degrees 1-3-5-7(or flat-7) skips over 2 (down an octave from 9th), 4 (down from 11th), and 6 (down from 13th).

Re: Weird chord change

Reply #6 –
ohhh.. a MAJOR 7th... wish I'd caught that the first time, I just scanned the message. Very nice reply Peter... I'm glad people will take the time to explain things like that.
-Ev

Re: Weird chord change

Reply #7 –
>>>Gb-Major-13th just sounds like a redundant way of saying Gb-13th…
So, there’s no such thing as a major-thirteenth chord?
Every thirteenth chord has to have a “dominant” seventh to it?
>>>many times the eleventh is left out in a thirteenth chord
I’ve seen this quite often, also. My guitar chord-finder book leaves out all of the 11ths on the 13th chords, and many of the piano parts in the charts we play leave out the 11ths as well.
>>>You would never use (or find) Gb7 as the final chord in any key…
So, in a blues chart in the key of F, for instance, the final chord would never be F7? I should make it FMaj7?
(And Peter, that’s not “wordy,” that’s “thorough.” Thanks.)

Re: Weird chord change

Reply #8 –
Perhaps I can differ.
MAJ defines the quality of the 7th.
While MIN defines the 3rd.
The MAJ in the GbMAJ13 has the same meaning.
That is the 13th does not imply a DOM chord.
The MAJ defines the quality of the 7th in this case a Maj9 plus 13th.

In the DOM version Gb13 does not necessary mean the 11th would be added.
The 13th is an addition or a substitution for the 5th in a DOM9 chord. The 11th is better left out.
The 11th is much better with the MIN7 chord in place of the 9th.

A Gbmaj13 to me implies Gb Bb Db F Ab Eb
and if the 11th was included it would be C (#11) but written Gbmaj13#11

I've seen Gbmaj13 written to imply Gmaj7 add6th simply
because that the full name gets too wordy for a chord chart.

Re: Weird chord change

Reply #9 –
yeah,what he said. Major with a number means the chord contains a major seventh.

When I went to school it was explained a little differently, though: In describing it theoretically, a full major thirteenth is Gb,Bb,Db,F,Ab,Cb,Eb. A Dominant thirteenth (usually just called thirteenth) is the same with an Fb as the fourth note.

But, of course, in a real musical situation you're not always, or even often, going to have all seven notes sounding in a big fat chord like that. Even in less colourful harmony, for instance, you'll often omit the fifth in a dominant seventh chord if it makes the texture better or the voice leading more attractive. So we also learned which notes you can omit and still have the colour and function of the chord. Often 3rd, 7th, and 9th alone will imply a dominant ninth chord. And for players, especially guitar players, you can't always play all the notes even if you want to (though you can usually rely on the bass player for the lowest note).

This M7/69 thing sounds like somebody whose ears are fussy enough that they want to tell the player specifically NOT to play the 11th, because most people confronted by GbM13 would sometimes play the 11th and sometimes not, depending on the context, what was physically convenient, and the whim of the moment. This chord notation is inexact by nature.

A similar case would be the difference between, say, E9/G# and G#m7b5 (or G#ø7). The only difference is that the first chord theoretically has an E in it and the second chord doesn't, but a lot of guitar players will sometimes play the same thing for both. Sometimes it makes a difference, sometimes not, depending on context.

Sometimes this stuff excites me, sometimes it makes my head hurt.

Re: Weird chord change

Reply #10 –
Yikes! How could I forget the blues? Thanks for correcting my oversight -- and for reminding me never to say "never".

Y'all are "right on" about the significance of the "Major" in G-Major-13. I looked thru about 30 books dealing with chords last week, and while most treat only the dominant variation of 13th's, 3 of the newer books (that's "newer" as in 1985, 1986 & 1991 printings) use and clarify the meanings of C13, CMaj13, and CMin13 as being extensions of dominant 7th, Major 7th, and Minor 7th chords, respectively. I rather liked one summary which showed CMaj13 with M3 and M7, C13 with M3 and m7, and CMin13 with m3 and m7. The associated jazz scales would be C-Major with CMaj13 (all 7 tones diatonic!), C-Mixolydian with C13, and C-Dorian-Minor with CMin13. We live and learn! That's what makes it fun!

One book (Jazz Chord Voicing for Keyboard by Bill Boyd) even touched on the Major-7/6/9 chord that started this thread, showing two voicings & fingerings for the C chord. Both used the root of C in the left hand, 2nd space, bass clef. The right hand variations were E-A-B-D, treble clef (Thumb-2-3-5), E on bottom line; and then B-D-E-A, same fingering, E still on the bottom line. Hope this helps.

Besides the obvious cluttered sound of these extended chords, one quickly runs out of fingers, distortions of same, and on the guitar, at least, strings to produce the sound; thus the tendency to omit one or more chord tones.
 

Re: Weird chord change

Reply #11 –
Wow!  I came to ask about a weird chord, and after searching for "weird chord" I found this thread, which mentions the EXACT SAME CHORD!  What are the odds!?!?!!?
I wonder if it's the same chart?  Anyway...
While I was getting online and finding my way here, one of my buds was studying the situation more closely, and he determined that when the chord is labeled as GbMA7(6/9), the F is always in the top/lead voice, whereas the label GbMA13 has the Bb or the Eb on top.
We'll be looking through other charts to see if there is any consistency.  We are aware, however, that different arrangers might do different things, so...