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Topic: Beaming with another note in the sopranostaff (Read 8896 times) previous topic - next topic

Beaming with another note in the sopranostaff

Hello,

I was trying to keying the note from the song sheet. I see in the song sheet that from the alto staff is beaming to the sopranto staff for the sake of good look. How can we do it in the Noteworthy. See attached i put the one from the song sheet and the one from the one that I keyed in in the Noteworthy.
More over, here in the song sheet, soprano, alto and tenor use one type of keysignature, why they put it like that.

Anyway how can I send a pdf, so that anyone can see the whole song, because, I do not know how to match the wordings with the note of Bass, It could be not the same syllable

Thank you.

Frank

Re: Beaming with another note in the sopranostaff

Reply #1 –
Is there a reason you want to use 4 staves instead of 2?
I plays 'Bones, crumpets, coronets, floosgals, youfonymums 'n tubies.

Re: Beaming with another note in the sopranostaff

Reply #2 –
Lawrie, Wouldn't the first three staves be layered? Wouldn't that be the way you would do it to match the original, but with four parts?

Re: Beaming with another note in the sopranostaff

Reply #3 –
Quote from: FrankSit –
Hello,

I was trying to keying the note from the song sheet. I see in the song sheet that from the alto staff is beaming to the sopranto staff for the sake of good look. How can we do it in the Noteworthy. See attached i put the one from the song sheet and the one from the one that I keyed in in the Noteworthy.
More over, here in the song sheet, soprano, alto and tenor use one type of keysignature, why they put it like that.

Anyway how can I send a pdf, so that anyone can see the whole song, because, I do not know how to match the wordings with the note of Bass, It could be not the same syllable

Thank you.

Frank
It's possible to do this song with just two staves, as shown in your attachment. I don't think this arrangement is multi-voice (SATB) but rather is a piano-vocal arrangement with the melody in the right hand piano part. You could do this in 3 staves, with the top staff being just the melody, and the bottom two staves being the piano.  I'll attach the first few measures.

Re: Beaming with another note in the sopranostaff

Reply #4 –
Quote from: fathafluff –
Lawrie, Wouldn't the first three staves be layered? Wouldn't that be the way you would do it to match the original, but with four parts?
Layering the first 3 staves is my assumption, but would I do it that way?
That would all depend.  If I needed to be able to distribute the 4 parts individually then yes, layering is the right solution, BUT if all I needed was the 2 staff result I would not bother with layering unless there were constructs that were impossible without layering.
I plays 'Bones, crumpets, coronets, floosgals, youfonymums 'n tubies.

Re: Beaming with another note in the sopranostaff

Reply #5 –
Quote from: Lawrie Pardy –
Is there a reason you want to use 4 staves instead of 2?
The reason is so that I can play the piano sound of each staff for each voice. That is the way we learn a song.
So for the alto staff that is I assume the notes in order to have 4 beats in the measure.
But when I layer all the 3 staves, I want to look it like in the book.
Then I think it over again, how can I make the lyrics fit with the Alto, and Tennor, even with Bass.

Any idea?

Thank you

Frank

Re: Beaming with another note in the sopranostaff

Reply #6 –
Quote from: fathafluff –
Wouldn't the first three staves be layered? Wouldn't that be the way you would do it to match the original, but with four parts?
Yes Lawrie, that is what I want to do, but again as usually I put also the lyrics of the alto, tenor and bass staves. I would face the problem, the wordings would  not fit. It will fit with the soprano only. Actually my friend asked me to do like what I usually do, but now I face difficulty.

Thank you,
Frank

Re: Beaming with another note in the sopranostaff

Reply #7 –
Quote from: Lawrie Pardy –
Layering the first 3 staves is my assumption, but would I do it that way?
That would all depend.  If I needed to be able to distribute the 4 parts individually then yes, layering is the right solution, BUT if all I needed was the 2 staff result I would not bother with layering unless there were constructs that were impossible without layering.
Lawrie,
I attached here the one that I keyed in. Since the pdf of the song is more than allowed, so you can download the pdf from this link:
https://drive.google.com/file/d/1Jvyx7MAFevjtD8dk_jwV_DgvS9lZfCL8/view?usp=sharing
The Nwc file is here: https://drive.google.com/file/d/1gJA2wT_X77fyKw0lryAl4aGssH20dYbl/view?usp=sharing
The idea is we will be able to practice each voice/staff, coz  they will see the word and note highlighted when we play then they can follow. But like I said how can we fit the lyrics for all staves.

Thank you

Frank

Re: Beaming with another note in the sopranostaff

Reply #8 –
Lawrie,
This is the song file, if you can not download it from the link I gave you.
Thank you
Frank

Re: Beaming with another note in the sopranostaff

Reply #9 –
Quote from: Lawrie Pardy –
Layering the first 3 staves is my assumption, but would I do it that way?
Yes Lawrie, I think that the way we would do. But the problem again in fitting the lyrics to show like in the song sheet, as you see in the attached, when I continued typing ,  the word wondrous did not go to verse 2 in the beginning, probably I  would just jump to lyric line verse 2?

Thank you

Re: Beaming with another note in the sopranostaff

Reply #10 –
Hi Frank,
as you see a need to have separate staves then there are at least a couple of ways to do it, BUT they will not result in an aesthetically pleasing result.

1) simply leave the quavers (8ths) unbeamed and adjust stem lengths on the Alto and Tenor staves so they overlay the flags with the Soprano staff

2) use a restchord on the dotted crotchet (quarter) on the Alto and Tenor staves so you can place a headless, muted, stemless quaver to be beamed with the real quaver and adjust note positions and stem lengths to get a beam overlay that works - makes the quaver in the Alto and Tenor lines look strange but the layered result is fine.

As for the lyrics question I'm going to leave that as an exercise for the student.  I firmly believe you can sort the lyrics out.  There have been several similar lyric related solutions presented to you by others for different songs you've asked about that I'm sure you can apply the lessons learned from them with a little thought.
I plays 'Bones, crumpets, coronets, floosgals, youfonymums 'n tubies.

Re: Beaming with another note in the sopranostaff

Reply #11 –
Despite what I said about lyrics earlier...
Quote from: FrankSit –
<snip>
The idea is we will be able to practice each voice/staff, coz  they will see the word and note highlighted when we play then they can follow. But like I said how can we fit the lyrics for all staves.
I wouldn't bother.  You're saying that you only need the separate staves to manage playback for practicing.  The note chase and lyrics will still highlight on the Soprano staff during individual playback of the other staves.

I would simply place the lyrics on the Soprano staff where they will fit most easily, allow sufficient spacing between the staff and the lyrics for the layered notes to fit, and print the layered version.

I also note that you still need to change the local repeats to master repeats...
I plays 'Bones, crumpets, coronets, floosgals, youfonymums 'n tubies.

Re: Beaming with another note in the sopranostaff

Reply #12 –
Quote from: FrankSit –
This is the song file, if you can not download it from the link I gave you.
Lawrie,
This is the latest when I tried to put everything that I know, but I did not see the last part of the lyrics highlighted. Did I missed something?.

Thank you
Frank

Re: Beaming with another note in the sopranostaff

Reply #13 –
Quote from: FrankSit –
This is the latest when I tried to put everything that I know, but I did not see the last part of the lyrics highlighted. Did I missed something?.
I fixed the repeats - as mentioned earlier, you cannot use local repeats with special endings so I've changed them to master repeats.

The lyrics in the last section need to be in the currently active (in this case 3rd) lyric line for the chase to work.  Also changed.

The resulting file is NOT perfect.  There is a bit of extra work I would do if it were mine to improve aesthetics, but it is functional now.

As an observation, the lyrics are far easier to read and edit if you use the <Enter> key occasionally.  See the changes I made there too.
I plays 'Bones, crumpets, coronets, floosgals, youfonymums 'n tubies.

Re: Beaming with another note in the sopranostaff

Reply #14 –
Quote from: Lawrie Pardy –
I fixed the repeats - as mentioned earlier, you cannot use local repeats with special endings so I've changed them to master repeats.
Thank you Lawrie, I pay special attention to this.
I will continue tomorrow reading and learning what you have explained here. I need to walk now for excercise to slower my aging.  Oh..on one thing, how do you make there is like a counter howmanytimes people to download the file you attached.

Again thank you very much.

Frank

Re: Beaming with another note in the sopranostaff

Reply #15 –
Hey Frank, the counter is automatically created by the forum software - I had nothing to do with it.
I plays 'Bones, crumpets, coronets, floosgals, youfonymums 'n tubies.

Re: Beaming with another note in the sopranostaff

Reply #16 –
Quote from: Lawrie Pardy –
As an observation, the lyrics are far easier to read and edit if you use the <Enter> key occasionally.  See the changes I made there too.
Thank you Lawrie, this is a good point/lesson for me in typing in the lyrics. On other thing about the text. When I put the additional text as 2nd line of the Title. When I moved it from the staff's top until near to the title, I can not see anymore when I want to edit. What is the way to edit that. Or maybe that's not the way we add subtitle? Actually I need to make translation title in other language. How can we use PageTextMaystro.nw.

Thanks
Frank

Re: Beaming with another note in the sopranostaff

Reply #17 –
Quote from: FrankSit –
Thank you Lawrie, this is a good point/lesson for me in typing in the lyrics.
Happy to help.

Quote from: FrankSit
On other thing about the text. When I put the additional text as 2nd line of the Title. When I moved it from the staff's top until near to the title, I can not see anymore when I want to edit. What is the way to edit that. Or maybe that's not the way we add subtitle?
This is not unusual if adding text entries that must be high on the page.  The anchor point is still there, you just can't see it.  A <Shift+Left/Right Arrow> will still select it.  It's just a bit hit and miss.

Something that can help here is 'Extra Margin Spacing "Above" '.  I don't recall what the default setting is, but mine is currently set to 5.  As you might guess from the small setting, I don't use this setting for the purpose you need.  Instead I set subtitles with PageTxt (see next section)

Extra Margin Spacing is found in the |Tools|Options|Editor (Tab) menu item.  The relevant help text reads:
Quote
Extra Margin Spacing "Above"
This sets the amount of empty top margin space used in the editor. Larger values make it easier to see elements in a staff that are located farther above the top staff in the system. Smaller values reduce the amount of empty space shown at the top of the score while working the editor.

Quote from: FrankSit
Actually I need to make translation title in other language. How can we use PageTextMaystro.nw.
I have a standard "PageTxt" object that uses text from the "File Info" dialogue. 
The file info dialogue pops up during the new file startup process.  It can be accessed from the |File|Info| menu, or <Ctrl+I>, or pressing the cursive "i" toolbar button.

Attached is a sample file using my standard objects.
I use some fairly sophisticated techniques that exist in the PageTxtMaestro objects that allows me to use a set of standard PageTxt objects and modify their content in a single place - (the File Info) - while being able to place the exact same objects on every staff.  To make this work properly, the relevant PageTxt objects MUST be marked on the Visibility tab as "show on printed" Top Staff Only.

This facilitates part extraction.  When you load this file, do a print preview, THEN either make the vocal staff hidden, or move it below the piano staves <Shift+Ctrl+PgDn> twice and print preview again.  Note the change in layout (System breaks) and the page number info at the top right.  This demonstrates the utility of the Visibility controls and "Top Staff Only"

Understanding what I'm doing with these objects will take some study of the settings in the objects AND the "File Info" dialogue.

I suggest you make a copy of the sample file and play with the object settings and the text in the File Info dialogue Comments section.
I plays 'Bones, crumpets, coronets, floosgals, youfonymums 'n tubies.

Re: Beaming with another note in the sopranostaff

Reply #18 –
Quote from: FrankSit –
<snip>
Actually I need to make translation title in other language. How can we use PageTextMaystro.nw.
A thought just occurred to me about this.
If you are using another language is the font still a standard Latin one, or are you using a different font that will need to be allowed for in the subtitle objects?
I plays 'Bones, crumpets, coronets, floosgals, youfonymums 'n tubies.

Re: Beaming with another note in the sopranostaff

Reply #19 –
Quote from: Lawrie Pardy –
If you are using another language is the font still a standard Latin one, or are you using a different font that will need to be allowed for in the subtitle objects?
Lawrie, We are still using standard latin font. Indonesian language uses Standard latin font, same like English. Even our  dialect Batak also used standard latin. We do not use anymore our old graphic font. Thank you for your help

Frank

Re: Beaming with another note in the sopranostaff

Reply #20 –
Quote from: FrankSit –
Lawrie, We are still using standard latin font. Indonesian language uses Standard latin font, same like English. Even our  dialect Batak also used standard latin. We do not use anymore our old graphic font. Thank you for your help
Good to know.

How did you go with the PageTxt stuff I posted?
Are you able to see how the SubTitles work in it?
I plays 'Bones, crumpets, coronets, floosgals, youfonymums 'n tubies.

Re: Beaming with another note in the sopranostaff

Reply #21 –
Quote from: Lawrie Pardy –
As for the lyrics question I'm going to leave that as an exercise for the student.  I firmly believe you can sort the lyrics out.  There have been several similar lyric related solutions presented to you by others for different songs you've asked about that I'm sure you can apply the lessons learned from them with a little thought.
Hi Lawrie, What is the rule in reconstructing the lyrics to match with the note, because in the attached I tried my best, but I am not sure if it is correct. If anyone can give me the clue how to figure it out.

Thank you
Frank

Re: Beaming with another note in the sopranostaff

Reply #22 –
Hi Frank,
I'm not sure what you're asking...
I thought the only reason for the separate staves was for separate playback while rehearsing, and that the published score would be layered to appear like the original?
If that is actually the case, then you only need lyrics in the Soprano staff.  The note and lyric chase will still show even if the Soprano staff isn't being played back.
Also, as noted, the Alto and Tenor parts don't have the correct number of notes to allow for all the syllables to be correctly displayed separately.
I plays 'Bones, crumpets, coronets, floosgals, youfonymums 'n tubies.

Re: Beaming with another note in the sopranostaff

Reply #23 –
Quote from: Lawrie Pardy –
Also, as noted, the Alto and Tenor parts don't have the correct number of notes to allow for all the syllables to be correctly displayed separately.
My  question if the lyrics that I put for Alto and Tennor, even for Bass are correct. The rule that I make is if 2 notes become one, I combined the 2 syllables to one, but I used undersocore ("_") in between.

Thank you.

Frank

Re: Beaming with another note in the sopranostaff

Reply #24 –
Hi Frank,
OK, firstly I think you can pretty much make up your own rules as far as the Alto, Tenor and Bass staves are concerned.  You could even have them singing differently to the Soprano voice if you wanted.

However, the question I really have is:
How are you planning to use this song?
Do you intend to leave it as 4 separate staves, or will you layer the top 3 as previously stated?

Quote from: FrankSit –
Quote from: Lawrie Pardy –
Is there a reason you want to use 4 staves instead of 2?
The reason is so that I can play the piano sound of each staff for each voice. That is the way we learn a song.
So for the alto staff that is I assume the notes in order to have 4 beats in the measure.
But when I layer all the 3 staves, I want to look it like in the book.
Then I think it over again, how can I make the lyrics fit with the Alto, and Tennor, even with Bass.

If you're planning to layer, then forget about putting lyrics into the Alto, Tenor and Bass staves.  Not only do you not need them, they will screw up the layering.

If you've changed your mind and now intend to print unlayered, then it is completely your choice how you want to arrange it.

Personally, I don't think your source is an SATB, I think it's a piano score with the lyric line and melody included in the right hand with the chords, and a simple left hand with the root note of each chord in the bass.
I plays 'Bones, crumpets, coronets, floosgals, youfonymums 'n tubies.

Re: Beaming with another note in the sopranostaff

Reply #25 –
Quote from: Lawrie Pardy –
Personally, I don't think your source is an SATB, I think it's a piano score with the lyric line and melody included in the right hand with the chords, and a simple left hand with the root note of each chord in the bass.
I agree with this. It is possible to convert a piano/vocal score into a SATB score, but it can be a lot of work. Besides isolating the right-hand chord notes into alto and tenor notes (you already have the melody, which can become the soprano part), you will have to redo at least some of the left-hand notes so they match the vocal rhythm. You might also consider having part of the song in unison (such as the refrain) and the rest of the song in parts (the verses), or vice versa. It's up to you as the arranger.

I have done this once or twice when I used to sing with a church choir. Sometimes it sounded okay, but other times it didn't feel like a proper choral arrangement. I'm glad I didn't quit my day job.

Re: Beaming with another note in the sopranostaff

Reply #26 –
Quote from: Lawrie Pardy –
How did you go with the PageTxt stuff I posted?
Are you able to see how the SubTitles work in it?
Thank you  Lawrie, Yes I am, the subtitle should be typed in the Comment windows.

Frank
 

Re: Beaming with another note in the sopranostaff

Reply #27 –
Quote from: Lawrie Pardy –
However, the question I really have is:
How are you planning to use this song?
Do you intend to leave it as 4 separate staves, or will you layer the top 3 as previously stated?

Quote from: FrankSit – 5 days ago
I plan to use 4 separate staves, because this is for practice. And for the lyrics I tried to just combined by regroup the word to the note of Alto, Tenor and Bas as you can see on the file that I sent/attrached.

Thank you

FFrank