Still, it's really good to know that the MSXML conversion can be done, and I'd be very surprised if someone didn't do something similar for NWC2 in the very near future! Incidentally, I've had a play with PrimoPDF as suggested elsewhere on these discussion boards and it's absolutely great. Having maximum portability for finished scores - and for free - is very nice indeed...
If it hadn't existed, I'd probably have suggested native printing to PDF as a feature in NWC2 as there's open-source code available for that function. As it is, it'd probably be a bit of a waste of time
G'day again Jarrad, just a few quick observations...
MIDI export works. Cakewalk shouldn't have any problems though there are a couple of notation marks that don't export. Primarily things like fermatas and breath marks. That said, there is an NWC2 user tool to "fix" that too.
Well, I've tried exporting from NWC and importing into Cakewalk and the result were interesting! The score *sounded* absolutely fine but it looked extremely weird. For some reason, 1/32-note rests were being introduced before each note, and the note length adjusted accordingly. Would any of you MIDI experts out there have a clue as to why that might be? That said, it's just academic interest: it really doesn't matter if the score looks bizarre in Cakewalk if I'm using NWC as my notation software, provided it sounds OK.
(Lyrics "chasing")
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MIDI'll do it.
So it would seem! My MIDI ignorance is profound as I haven't played with it since I was at school *mumblemumble* years ago, and I never really got into the esoterica back then either.
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Fonts are simple. You have 6 "primary" fonts for lyrics, title, page text, staff text, staff italic text and staff bold. You also have 6 "User" fonts which do not have defined default functions.
Hmmm. Right, OK, that seems pretty straightforward!
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All of these fonts are user selectable. If you go the NWC2 route you can now also change the notation font itself - I'm producing some very nice jazz charts these days and this feature makes it much easier.
I'm starting to see the attraction of the beta program
Well, I freely confess that I don't know what all of the symbols mean, but that's one pretty-looking chart nonetheless! :-)
I'm not afraid to show my ignorance... what does the solid black line in Bar 69 signify? There are other symbols that I'm sure I'd have recognised back in my schooldays that I just can't remember the meaning of (the little arrows under certain notes, the arch-with-a-dot-in-it symbol over the final bar) but I'm fairly sure I've never known what the big black line means!
I'll have to have a go at playing that when I get home :-)
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This chart has NO post processing performed. Everything you see was produced within NWC2 - took some interesting workarounds for the blank space before the Coda where there ought to have been a staff and the 1st and second time bar lines are text items instead of the default ones from NWC2.
Y'know, I think I'm going to have to be very careful when using this product and keep reminding myself that the important thing for me is to finish the arrangement and get on with the next one, not to try and make something look really pretty. Trouble is, if people like you are going to go around producing all these lovely-looking charts, I'll be constantly fighting a battle against the urge to concentrate on aesthetics!
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There is no doubt in my mind that the speed difference is purely NWC's significantly better user interface. I have tried so many other products I've lost count and none of them measure up to NWC's user interface.
I can quite believe that. I went back to working in Finale for a period last night for comparison purposes, and I dug out the keyboard shortcut chart... Although the note-placing caret is much friendlier in Finale than the little black blob you get in NWC (it's so much easier to tell where you are above or below the stave) the keyboard shortcuts themselves are frankly nothing short of weird! There are shortcuts for Smartshape features that I'd imagine only a fraction of the userbase actually need, but no shortcut - for instance - for tieing the currently-selected note across barlines... like I said, WEIRD!
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Moving stuff around is a keyboard only thing from memory. Who wants to use a mouse for this kind of thing anyhow?
Me. Given that you are selecting the swathe of notes with the mouse in the first instance, it would make perfect sense to complete the action with the mouse... especially as it's a three-button operation to shift the notes around with the keyboard. When adding stuff, the keyboard is best. When moving stuff, being able to use the mouse would be immensely helpful.
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As for the help file, yes it could use some updates and I believe there are some on the way for NWC2. NWC1 development is, AFAIK, at a halt.
Ah, that NCW2 thing again ;-)
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Do not pass go, do not collect AUD $200.00. Join the NWC2 beta program. The additional features will blow you away. It is a significantly better product. Sending reports back is as simple as visiting this forum, 'cos that's how you do it. There is also a private news group which registered users can access.
OK, you've sold it to me, I give up! I will register for the beta program! Sounds like a very worthwhile exercise.
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Currently NWC2 has the same style help as NWC1. I have to say I prefer this myself but that's because I use 2 monitors and can drag the help window onto the secondary screen and refer to it while I work on the primary. Actually I use this kind of functionality a lot - dunno how people can work with only one screen these days
That's great - you're giving me an excuse to rush out and buy that 21" LCD I've had my eye on as a secondary monitor for my 17" widescreen laptop Funnily enough, I've been thinking about doing that 'cos I use two monitors at work...
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That said, the notes for the most recent update to NWC2 referred to preparing for changes to the help feature - what this actually means I don't know.
Even with two monitors, I'd prefer the newer help-file format so I'll keep my fingers crossed!
I probably will go for it, and soon, but I have realised one thing I really really don't like... the old-style Windows help format! It's starting to irritate me quite unreasonably that I get a separate window every time I want to try and find a new topic. Does anyone know if NCW2 will have the updated style?
Speaking of help, I'm afraid I've got another question! Is it possible to hear the notes as they're placed, a la Finale? Now that's a feature I really do approve of, as musical novices like myself might not spot a mistake (or series thereof) until the piece is played back. I can't see an option for it in the menu system, but maybe I'm missing something - wouldn't be the first time!
Thank you both very much for the quick and comprehensive responses! In terms of Cakewalk, I use it because I'm primarily interested in audio recording rather than MIDI as I'm pretty much entirely an acoustic musician these days. The reason for wanting MIDI export if I end up with Noteworthy as my notation tool is that I want to get my scores into Cakewalk to act as "guide tracks" for singers when we're doing recording work... that was also the reason for my query over XML, as the flaws that are introduced when ANY package converts to MIDI tend to go away with XML... or so I'm given to understand from my reading around.
I'm not overly fussed about the lack of guitar chord support or native facilities for transposition. For all of my blithering about having no musical theory knowledge, I've been working off chords for long enough that I can transpose a set in my head on the fly if I know the piece.
I love the sound of the highlighting lyrics as the music plays; that's just lovely - and perfect for my needs, although I'd still need to somehow get the scores into Cakewalk. I didn't know that was part of the feature set!
All in all, it does rather sound as though NWC might be the program for me. I've done two pieces in Finale Notepad now and I have some serious gripes about the user interface, in particular relating to the way that selecting, copying and pasting work. Fussing around holding down shift keys whilst using the mouse to move to another page and performing another selection is a pain, whilst the software's blank refusal to paste something in if you've left a rest or somesuch hanging around is irritating to say the least.
I've read some historical discussions on this forum about forcing conformance to bar lines and whilst I initially thought this would be a useful feature, I think I've rather changed my mind after my recent experiences! Being able to use the keypad to do a lot of the entry is a boon and I'm sure I'd soon absorb the most useful shortcuts.
I have to say, the community aspects are also a plus ;-)
I'd love to learn more about the "fonts" aspect of NWC. I have no problem with having to add chord symbols or fret charts as text, provided I can get 'em on there, although I'd certainly add my two-pennorth to the wishlist for guitar chord support!
I think I like this software...
You'll be seeing more of me, I have no doubt; I've had a little play with NWC whilst my boss's back was turned and the speed of input appears to be about five times that of Finale Notepad. Whether that's just my ignorance of how to use Finale properly or not is almost (but not quite) irrelevant; if it had a better-designed user interface I'd have been at least as fast on Finale as I am on NWC! Alright, maybe that's a little harsh but I'm an extremely experienced computer user (like many others here, I'm in a highly technical line of business) and I think I can reasonably say there's no lack of technical savvy interfering with the process ;-)
Aside from the niggle of the guitar chords/tablature tool thing, I can't see anything to attract me to Finale over NWC now I've had the chance to play a little.
I've got a couple more questions though; is it possible to select a note (or series thereof) and drag it up and down the stave? I can't seem to do that and can't find it in the help file...
...no, hold that thought, I found out how to do it - bizarrely enough - in the section on the Clef symbol command, whilst looking for something completely different! Is this function a keyboard-only thing, or is there a way of dragging notes around with the mouse?
Tell me truly, ladies and gentlemen; was my struggle to find that tidbit down to my lack of *musical* understanding - i.e. was that a perfectly logical place to find the information - or was it more a case of needing to get my head around how the help file is organised? ;-)
Seriously though, I'm starting to appreciate this little gem more and more. The only thing left to do is test the MIDI functionality vs imports to Cakewalk and if all goes well I'll be putting my own dribble of cash into the NWC coffers!
Hmmm... now I wonder if I can get the Beta version? I'm an experience Beta tester and technical author...
Actually, I'll just shut up and pay for NWC2 when it's available to the likes of me; I can't honestly say I'd have sufficient time to send decent reports back...
I'll stop dribbling my stream of consciousness into your pool now. Thanks again, it's nice to meet you all, and I think I'll be becoming a paid-up member of the NWC fan club some time in the next few hours!
First let me say this: what a great forum! I've hung around tons of newsgroups, forums (fora?), bulletin boards and who knows what else since 1993 and from my initial perusal, this appears to be one of the nicest communities around in terms of non-judgemental support. As an aside, the other forum I'd compare it to is also a community of people using a software product developed by a smaller company in a market dominated by super-expensive competitors!
Anyway, I'm now going to attempt to take hideous advantage of you helpful folks and ask my cheeky question: should I buy Noteworthy?
Clearly, even if you're so inclined, you're not going to be able to help without a little background information; so here it is...
Firstly, I'm an amateur. By that, I mean that I'm a musical amateur; no training, little understanding of musical theory and near-zero experience of transcribing music by hand or otherwise. I've been singing and playing various instruments (guitar, piano, flute and sundry others) for fifteen years but I can't even sight-read without three hours' preparation and a pencil, which I suspect doesn't really count. However, I have discovered just this week that I can - with much squinty-type concentration and muffled cursing - transcribe the music in my head to a reasonable facsimile on virtual paper. I know, in other words, "just enough to be dangerous"!
My first experience of the genre was with Finale Notepad about three days ago, on the grounds that it was the first free package I found that actually had something like a workable set of features designed by someone who wasn't on day-release from the Institute for the Terminally Bewildered. That said, I find the user interface... "challenging". Yes, that's probably the most polite term I could apply. "Sucks" might be more apt though. I had been thinking that the paid-for versions might be more user-friendly but judging from some of the historical posts in this forum, perhaps they're not!
Secondly, I really REALLY don't have the time to spend a long period wrestling with the user interface or setting things up in order to produce basic results. I'm lucky if I can grab three or four hours in the course of a week on top of my usual committments and that's paring things right down to the bone. This puppy doesn't even watch television - none at all - 'cos I can't find time to fit it in... and if you're wondering where, in that case, I found the time to write a wordy post to a message board, the answer is - predictably - "because I'm at work"
Thirdly, I suppose it would be helpful to tell you what type of music I'm trying to write with it. I have a small accappella group (five people) who meet every Monday with a view to eventually doing some paid (or at least public) gigs. Unlike me, several of them find it infinitely easier to learn their parts from a written score rather than just by memory; hence my foray into the scary world of "real" musicianship. So mostly I'll be writing up to five vocal parts on a score; mostly British and American folk music with some genre-crossing stuff like barbershop arrangements of pop and rock hits a la "Da Vinci's Notebook".
Thus, I very much doubt I'll ever need many of the features either present or hoped-for in Noteworthy as the type of music we do tends very much toward the lower end of the musical sophistication scale.
That said, I'd like the option to be able to score including guitar chords and piano accompaniment; never let it be said that I'm unwilling to broaden my horizons...
Finally, the kicker. I'm currently using Cakewalk Sonar LE as my audio software. It has some music notation functionality but it's frankly rubbish. In this version, for instance, the only way you can get an accidental is to place the note on the stave, right-click it, select Properties and manually change the pitch from a drop-down box! It's a similar process for dotted notes or notes tied across bar-lines.
However, I will be upgrading said software to Sonar Producer 6 (that's the kick-ass, top-end version of Cakewalk) in the near-ish future. There's d*mn-all information available about its music notation capabilities and I don't know if they're just as shocking or whether they're more comparable with dedicated packages like Noteworthy. Does anyone here know if the full version of Cakewalk has proper notation facilities and can produce proper printed music with lyrics and whatnot?
In summary, the features I really want are:
1) Ease of use 2) The ability to write at least 5 staves (usually S, A, A, T, B) 3) The ability to selectively export some or all of the staves to MIDI; being able to dole out individually-"performed" parts to people in the group along with the printed music would be invaluable 4) The ability to have multiple verses of lyrics under the stave and/or at the end of the piece
The features I'd *like* are:
1) Guitar chords 2) The ability to scan in sheet music 3) The ability to write out in MusicXML
I cannot foresee a time when I'm going to want to produce professional-quality sheet music for publication or for large groups like some of you clever people; creating scores is a purely auxiliary activity for me compared to the main business of arranging, teaching and performing the songs.
Now, I'm not going to say that money's no object, 'cause it is. I don't want to spend money I don't *have* to spend to get the feature set I need, but by the same token I will spend what needs to be spent, if you see what I mean! I have in mind a maximum of around $200 for whatever notation package I buy, but obviously if Cakewalk will do the job I need it to then I don't want to buy anything else and will just get the full Cakewalk package sooner than anticipated.
I absolutely do not want to have to use more than one notation package for the listed purposes, as I'm never going to find the time to learn more than one.
I downloaded the demo of Noteworthy on Tuesday, but since then have had only a couple of hours in which to either "complete a piece I'd started in Finale Notepad" or "start learning NWC", so I'm afraid I took the former option. I'm trying to circumvent at least part of the evaluation process by coming straight to the people who know what they're talking about!
With the vast experience of such matters accumulated herein, what would you advise for my specific needs?
