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Topic: Page breaks and other bits... (Read 9353 times) previous topic - next topic

Page breaks and other bits...

G'day all,
with my recent entry into playing musicals, and needing to fix the notation of many of the parts I've played, I'm really starting to need a page break option.  Getting effective page turns is quite a challenge in works that are 70 and 80 pages long.  Fiddling with dummy bars and system breaks is OK for a page or two, but when you need to do it 10 or 12 times in a single work it becomes, shall we say, tedious.

In addition, and while again workarounds exist, the ability to create indents for Coda's etc. would be greatly appreciated.

The biggest problem with the workarounds that exist is they are difficult to apply when extracting parts from a full score.  Not every instrument needs a page break or an indent at exactly the same place, and the "digital whiteout" really screws up the full score presentation.  Adding a bar line attribute for page break and possibly indent seems to me to be an obvious solution, but not being a programmer I'm probably ignorant of the programming challenges this may present.

In more detail, I'd like a page break facility that basically works like the system break option, but instead of a new system, it throws a page.  I'd like a system option within NWC2 that allows you to choose whether or not to vertically justify the remaining systems on the page (my preference for the default would be NOT) and that this choice should override the global vertical justification option for that page only.

Add to this the ability to start a page offset downwards from the normal top of the page.

Of course my previous desire for "handles" on slurs so I can adjust their vertical start and end position and overall curvature still remains, as well as an associated line drawing facility.  The line drawing is a much lesser priority.

I'm pretty sure these have been added to the "wish list" but to make sure I'll be visiting there shortly...  ;)

Comments?

<edit> Additional bits in italics
I plays 'Bones, crumpets, coronets, floosgals, youfonymums 'n tubies.

Re: Page breaks and other bits...

Reply #1 –
This would be really useful in many instances and stop the need for many different work arounds.

But I think that this may be a difficult wish since if you think of all of the different workarounds people use to achive this (or similar), it will perhaps indicate the different areas that the software developer (Eric) will need to have additional routines to cover side issues.

But, having said that, it would be a brilliant improvement.  Has my vote.
Rich.

Re: Page breaks and other bits...

Reply #2 –
My thoughts haven't changed since the last time:
Quote from: Rick G. –
Yup. Folks that don't play solo or in small ensembles just don't appreciate how critical page breaks are.

Filling every page and line is way down on my priority list, well after avoiding page and line breaks in the middle of tricky areas.

I suggested some time ago that back to back barlines, both with 'Force System Break' set, ought to throw a new page.

Checking 'Force System Break' ought also to open up 2 spinboxes:
  • Indent this system (on right):
  • Indent next system (on left):
It would help greatly with finding jumps. Codas are almost always indented in "store bought" music.
I would only add that SysBreaks need not be on barlines. That would not be a simple change but, if the routines need a major overhaul, it ought to be considered.

LilyPond has an option to 'forbid page break'. I was skeptical, but after using it a few times, I like it. If the page breaks in a horrid area, this simply tells it to try again. It doesn't take many of these to get a proper layout and it seldom needs to be redone when you make an edit that causes reflow.

I still vote no on slur handles. IMO, the proper horizontal start/end of a slur can be determined from context. The exception seems to be when the system breaks. Other notation software has problems in this area as well, which puzzles me, since the rules for this appear to be rather straightforward. Formal support for 'digital whiteout' would help in the very few places that a special horizontal start/end is needed.

Slur curvature is rather elegantly definable using hidden muted grace notes.

All slurs should need is a vertical offset override (on both the start and end) but, the current 'Pos:' system is not granular enough to do this properly. IMO, slurs should not start or end on a staff line.

Eventually, slurs need to use 11 control points (like ties), rather than the current 7 control points. This would allow more curvature on the tips, similar to NWC 1.75's slurs.
Registered user since 1996

Re: Page breaks and other bits...

Reply #3 –
G'day Rick,
Quote from: Rick G. –
I still vote no on slur handles. IMO, the proper horizontal start/end of a slur can be determined from context.
This puzzles me, I don't recall ever suggesting that the handle should be related to horizontal positioning control, but vertical control*.  And handles somewhere in the length to adjust curvature has to be easier than messing with grace notes...

However, for the line  drawing feature I'd like, obviously there must be a horizontal component, but I envision this as simply attaching the ends of the lines to existing objects on the staff - most likely bar lines.  Similar to how we currently place text objects.

* I do note that you covered this later in your post.
I plays 'Bones, crumpets, coronets, floosgals, youfonymums 'n tubies.

Re: Page breaks and other bits...

Reply #4 –
G'day Rich,
Quote from: Richard Woodroffe –
<snip>
But I think that this may be a difficult wish since if you think of all of the different workarounds people use to achive this (or similar), it will perhaps indicate the different areas that the software developer (Eric) will need to have additional routines to cover side issues.
<snip>

I don't see this as a problem 'cos the features used to create the work arounds would remain in existence as far as I can see...
I plays 'Bones, crumpets, coronets, floosgals, youfonymums 'n tubies.

Re: Page breaks and other bits...

Reply #5 –
Quote from: Lawrie Pardy –
handles somewhere in the length to adjust curvature has to be easier than messing with grace notes...
Ok, you've moved a slur with handle. How would this be shown in nwctxt?

How would these "handles" appear in the editor? Little circles? Could you turn them off? (This would make the editor modal, something NoteWorthy has blissfully resisted.)

One of the things I very much like about NWC2 is that, left-clicking in the client area only does 2 things:
  • position the cursor
  • make a selection
IOW, if you keep the mouse in the client area and only use the left button, it won't change any objects.

I would not want to click and drag, thinking I was making a selection, only to find that I was moving a handle. I shudder just thinking about it.

Edit: added strikeout. Lawrie has clarified this.
Registered user since 1996
 

Re: Page breaks and other bits...

Reply #6 –
G'day Rick,
Quote from: Rick G. –
Ok, you've moved a slur with handle. How would this be shown in nwctxt?

How would these "handles" appear in the editor? Little circles? Could you turn them off? (This would make the editor modal, something NoteWorthy has blissfully resisted.)
Hmm, not exactly sure, but I would suspect a new object type.  How about:

|Handle|Slur|Pos:n|Opts:Type=First
|Handle|Slur|Pos:n|Opts:Type=End
|Handle|Slur|Pos:n|Opts:Type=Mid1
|Handle|Slur|Pos:n|Opts:Type=Mid2
|Handle|Slur|Pos:n|Opts:Type=Mid3

Draw the slur using the current algorithm...  Perhaps represented as:
|Handle|Slur|Pos:n|Opts:Type=Default
So that they can automatically reposition if you change the POS: of notes/objects under the slur.  Move the handle and the Opts: change.  An audit slur tool might be nice too, BUT only within a selection...

At the moment we have large and small anchors for text and other objects - use the same glyph in the same way.  For me this would be the diamond as I prefer it to the anchor shaped glyph.

Select it in exactly the same way as any other object attached to an anchor...  As for POS: - I agree that the current granularity is a bit coarse, but it would still be orders of magnitude better than what we have now.  Fractional POS: is also on the list, but by using POS: for slur handles, if/when we get fractional POS: it'll work straight away.

I'm certainly not suggesting this should be some kind of mouse only action - no way do I want to alter the current UI functionality.

I suspect you're reading more into my suggestion that actually exists...  I'm a firm believer in KISS.
I plays 'Bones, crumpets, coronets, floosgals, youfonymums 'n tubies.

Re: Page breaks and other bits...

Reply #7 –
Quote from: Lawrie Pardy –
I suspect you're reading more into my suggestion that actually exists...
I was. I thought a "handle" would be something that would be dragged. "Anchor" would have been less confusing to me.

We are not too far apart. Your 'Type=Midn' objects would function much as hidden, muted grace notes do :)

Type=First and Type=End would end up looking like:
  • |Text|Text:" "|Pos:n|Placement:AtNextNote

IMO, this would be unnecessary clutter. The diamond is somewhere off to the left with a dotted line to the note's center.

Better to incorporate the offset into the Note/Rest/Chord/RestChord property as in:
  • |Note|Dur:4th|Pos:0^|Opts:Slur=Upward, -0.5|...

In any case, Page breaks and other bits... is a strange place for this discussion.
Registered user since 1996

Re: Page breaks and other bits...

Reply #8 –
G'day Rick,
Quote from: Rick G. –
Better to incorporate the offset into the Note/Rest/Chord/RestChord property as in:
  • |Note|Dur:4th|Pos:0^|Opts:Slur=Upward, -0.5|...

This is a very interesting thought...  No "handle" as such, but edit a note/rest/chord etc. type objects properties to override slur vertical position, much like stem length...  A little more unwieldy than an anchor but possibly more easily implemented as there would be no new objects...  Also, placement of Midn becomes moot.  Food for thought indeed.


Quote
In any case, Page breaks and other bits... is a strange place for this discussion.

Well, I was primarily wanting to ask for page breaks etc., but figured the slur handles fitted the "other bits" part of the title...
I plays 'Bones, crumpets, coronets, floosgals, youfonymums 'n tubies.

Re: Page breaks and other bits...

Reply #9 –
Quote from: Lawrie Pardy –
This is a very interesting thought...  No "handle" as such, but edit a note/rest/chord etc. type objects properties to override slur vertical position, much like stem length...  A little more unwieldy than an anchor but possibly more easily implemented as there would be no new objects...  Also, placement of Midn becomes moot.  Food for thought indeed.

I've thought some more about this - is there any programmatic reason why note/rest/chord type objects under a slur can't have handles/anchors automatically appear on the slur curve to allow selection for vertical adjustment?  Automatically reflecting in the new properties for the object of course...

If you don't like the clutter, perhaps a global option to turn them off, much like we have a global option for selecting our preferred anchor glyph.

One thought does occur to me though - how would older versions of NWC2 cope with the new data in the NWC file?  Will it create an error and crash or fail to load, or will it simply ignore the new attributes and behave as if they didn't exist?
I plays 'Bones, crumpets, coronets, floosgals, youfonymums 'n tubies.

Re: Page breaks and other bits...

Reply #10 –
Quote from: Lawrie Pardy –
I've thought some more about this - is there any programmatic reason why note/rest/chord type objects under a slur can't have handles/anchors automatically appear on the slur curve to allow selection for vertical adjustment?  
No reason. It would look and act much like this:
Quote from: Slur Anchors
!NoteWorthyComposerClip(2.0,Single)
|Note|Dur:16th,Slur|Pos:-1|Opts:Stem=Down,Beam=First
|Note|Dur:16th,Slur|Pos:0|Opts:Stem=Down,Beam
|Note|Dur:16th,Slur|Pos:1|Opts:Stem=Down,Beam
|Note|Dur:16th,Slur|Pos:2|Opts:Stem=Down,Beam=End
|Note|Dur:4th|Pos:3
|Note|Dur:16th,Slur|Pos:-1|Opts:Stem=Down,Beam=First
|Note|Dur:Whole,Grace|Pos:2X|Opts:NoLegerLines,Muted|Visibility:Never
|Note|Dur:16th,Slur|Pos:0|Opts:Stem=Down,Beam
|Note|Dur:Whole,Grace|Pos:4X|Opts:NoLegerLines,Muted|Visibility:Never
|Note|Dur:16th,Slur|Pos:1|Opts:Stem=Down,Beam
|Note|Dur:Whole,Grace|Pos:5X|Opts:NoLegerLines,Muted|Visibility:Never
|Note|Dur:16th,Slur|Pos:2|Opts:Stem=Down,Beam=End
|Note|Dur:Whole,Grace|Pos:3X|Opts:NoLegerLines,Muted|Visibility:Never
|Note|Dur:4th|Pos:3
!NoteWorthyComposerClip-End

Quote from: Lawrie Pardy –
Automatically reflecting in the new properties for the object of course...
I don't see the need for NWC2 to automatically place them. Not every slur would need them, and those that do would need only 1 or 2. Better to let the user insert them as needed.

Quote from: Lawrie Pardy –
One thought does occur to me though - how would older versions of NWC2 cope with the new data in the NWC file?  Will it create an error and crash or fail to load, or will it simply ignore the new attributes and behave as if they didn't exist?
Real easy to find out. Just copy my "theoretical" object:
  • |Note|Dur:4th|Pos:0^|Opts:Slur=Upward, -0.5|...
and paste it into NWC2. You will find that NWC2 just strips out what it doesn't understand.

If NWC2 can't decipher it, the result is a Text object with the clipboard contents in quotes.
For example, NWC2 (ver 2.0.4.0) will "choke" on this:
  • |Chord|Dur:4th|Pos:3|Dur2:Half|Pos2:1
It violates one of NWC's current rules: Objects containing Dur2:<dur> must also contain Opts:Stem=Up (or Down) and the direction must be correct.

Quote from: Lawrie Pardy –
If you don't like the clutter, perhaps a global option to turn them off, much like we have a global option for selecting our preferred anchor glyph.
I don't. I would like a global option to set the anchor glyph to a null glyph. I sometimes use a special SysFont with the large anchor replaced by a null glyph. Makes the editor much more WYSIWYG, at the expense of not being able to select some objects with a mouse. A useful tradeoff in some cases.
Registered user since 1996

Re: Page breaks and other bits...

Reply #11 –
Quote from: Rick G. –
No reason. It would look and act much like this:
Very close to what I envisage, but I'd like to be able to drag the curve down too.

Quote
I don't see the need for NWC2 to automatically place them. Not every slur would need them, and those that do would need only 1 or 2. Better to let the user insert them as needed.
Hmm, I'm not sure which way I lean on this.  On the one hand, if the handles are there by default it's easy to just move one.  On the other hand, if they need to be explicitly activated, there's less clutter and possibly less problems that might be generated by having too many control points.

Perhaps a compromise - have the start and finish activate by default and the others activated explicitly as required.

RE: clutter
Quote
I don't. I would like a global option to set the anchor glyph to a null glyph. I sometimes use a special SysFont with the large anchor replaced by a null glyph. Makes the editor much more WYSIWYG, at the expense of not being able to select some objects with a mouse. A useful tradeoff in some cases.

Hence my suggestion to be able to globally disable the display of the slur handles (or anchors if you prefer).
I plays 'Bones, crumpets, coronets, floosgals, youfonymums 'n tubies.

Re: Page breaks and other bits...

Reply #12 –
Sorry about the typos herein. For some reason the window jumps as I type, so I'm typing below the bottom edge of the window so I'm typing blind.  I made many corrections, but I've decided it's not worth spending more time on it.

I am convinced I replied to Lawrie's first message starting this thread, but it can't be found.

I support Lawrie's suggestion.  I can offer two easy workarounds to the page breaks:

Quote
G'day all,
... I'm really starting to need a page break option.  Getting effective page turns is quite a challenge in works that are 70 and 80 pages long.  Fiddling with dummy bars and system breaks is OK for a page or two, but when you need to do it 10 or 12 times in a single work it becomes, shall we say, tedious.
...
I'd like a page break facility that basically works like the system break option, but instead of a new system, it throws a page.  


Create a number of new staffs, and copy the original staffs_to them.  Then use the first new staff as page one.  Delete everything after the bar line where you want to page break  to be.   Use the second new staff as page two, deleting everything before and after the notes you want on page 2.  Do the same until you have a staff for each page.   Delete all the bars that you used on the first new staff, do the same on subsequent staffs.  Then just print one staff at a time.  If you removed the Information entries, you can just print each staff, one at a time, and have your "book" set up.  

An easier option is to copy what you want as separate pages into separate files, don't make Information entries, and print each file separately.  

In both scenarios, use the forced system break at the end of each page to ensure the line stretches to the right margin.

Re: Page breaks and other bits...

Reply #13 –
G'day David,
your suggestions are certainly functional, and I hadn't thought of anything even near to them either.  But they still suffer from the same problem my own method has, though possibly not as badly...  Nevertheless, they're tedious and relatively a lot of work.

Thanks for the ideas though - I'll probably use either or both next time I need to fix a score.  Unless Eric blesses us with page breaks first of course :)
I plays 'Bones, crumpets, coronets, floosgals, youfonymums 'n tubies.

Re: Page breaks and other bits...

Reply #14 –
Quote from: David Palmquist –
Sorry about the typos herein. For some reason the window jumps as I type, so I'm typing below the bottom edge of the window so I'm typing blind.  I made many corrections, but I've decided it's not worth spending more time on it.

You installed IE8 didn't you..?
I plays 'Bones, crumpets, coronets, floosgals, youfonymums 'n tubies.

Re: Page breaks and other bits...

Reply #15 –
Yep.  I like some of the improvements, but it's not perfect.  I use Safari, Opera and Firefox as well, but haven't made the mental leap yet to wanting one of them as my default browser. IE8 has borrowed ideas from the others, but seems slow and quirky at times. 

Re: Page breaks and other bits...

Reply #16 –
I knew 'cos the behaviour you reported has been seen on other forums I visit too.  I'm finding that I tend to use Firefox most now.
I plays 'Bones, crumpets, coronets, floosgals, youfonymums 'n tubies.

Re: Page breaks and other bits...

Reply #17 –
I like Firefox too but it seems to load very slowly.  On the other hand, IE suffers from trying to be all things to all people, i.e. Bloatware.