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Just a little question

Hello,
I only own the free version od noteWorthy.
Nevertheless I opened a Midi File but I´d like to to change a clef from tremble to bass including an octave shift (one down) so I go like this:
notion, clef, octave down and normally after I saved it should change automatically but if I try to save as... I cannot choose save as Midi...
If I try the trick with the export... the programm tells me that this feature is only for owners of the full version. Is there a possibility to change the clef with my version?
(Oh  if it´s necessary it´s the NoteWorthy Composer 2.0 Evaluation Version)
I really hope you guys can help me, it would be great.
Thanks a lot

Re: Just a little question

Reply #1 –
Trouble is, backblech2, that most of the people on this forum have purchased NoteWorthy and so would not be that sure what would work and what wouldn't on the evaluated version. Even worse than that, many people, myself included, only had evaluation versions for the previous version and so do not know what is alllowed in the version 2 evaluation copy.

But I tell you what - it doesn't cost very much for what you get and if you ask the people on this forum, they will tell you that it's worth every penny.  Why not consider purchasing a licence and then you will not have any problem exporting to midi as well as lots of other features. - Just a thought.

 
Rich.

Re: Just a little question

Reply #2 –
Hi Julian, welcome to the forum.

What used to be 'save as MIDI' in the old version (1.75x) is now Export...
Export... is disabled in the current trial version of NoteWorthy Composer.
There is some discussion of this <here>.

Quote from: backblech2 –
Is there a possibility to change the clef with my version?
Yes. Change the clef, then select all the notes and use Ctrl+Shift+UpArrow to move all the notes to the proper location. To change from Treble to Bass requires the notes to be shifted up 12 times.

NoteWorthy does not change note positions automatically when you change the clef.

MIDI files do not contain Clef information. No matter what version of NoteWorthy you are using, or any other MIDI export software (LilyPond Finale, Sibelius, etc.), the Clef is lost.

Notation software that imports MIDI files just guesses (or asks the user) as to the proper Clef.

There is a User Tool <here> that automates the process of changing Clefs. IMO, if you just have 1 or 2 Clefs to change, it is easier to do it manually.
Registered user since 1996

Re: Just a little question

Reply #3 –
Quote from: Rick G. –
Hi Julian, welcome to the forum.

What used to be 'save as MIDI' in the old version (1.75x) is now Export...
Export... is disabled in the current trial version of NoteWorthy Composer.
There is some discussion of this <here>.
Yes. Change the clef, then select all the notes and use Ctrl+Shift+UpArrow to move all the notes to the proper location. To change from Treble to Bass requires the notes to be shifted up 12 times.

NoteWorthy does not change note positions automatically when you change the clef.

MIDI files do not contain Clef information. No matter what version of NoteWorthy you are using, or any other MIDI export software (LilyPond Finale, Sibelius, etc.), the Clef is lost.

Notation software that imports MIDI files just guesses (or asks the user) as to the proper Clef.

There is a User Tool <here> that automates the process of changing Clefs. IMO, if you just have 1 or 2 Clefs to change, it is easier to do it manually.

Tahnk you, you helped me so much although you only have to shift 9 times up ;) becaus bass is on octave and 9 semis under the tremble.
Thank you once again

Re: Just a little question

Reply #4 –
Quote from: backblech2 –
you only have to shift 9 times up ;) becaus bass is on octave and 9 semis under the tremble.
Quote
!NoteWorthyComposerClip(2.0,Single)
|Clef|Type:Treble
|Note|Dur:Half|Pos:-6
|Clef|Type:Bass
|Note|Dur:Half|Pos:6
!NoteWorthyComposerClip-End
To get from Pos:-6 to Pos:6 I have to shift 12 times (-6 + 12 = 6).
Registered user since 1996

Re: Just a little question

Reply #5 –
Hmm, with respect and to hopefully dispel any confusion, to change from Treble to Bass clef, shift everyting DOWN 2 or 9 times or UP 5 or 12 times and change the clef...  There will probably be octave shifts left over that you may or may not need to fix depending on whether you are trying to get it to sound the same OR you are trying to put something in the range of a particular instrument.  The UP 12 times choice will put you in the original octave but in most cases you'll have more ledger lines than you can count.  A fruitless exercise IMHO.

E.G. - I play Trombone.  It is normally written in concert bass.  I often play music from a treble clef staff - I can transpose at sight OR I can use NWC to do it for me.  I usually move things up 5 times for a start, then look at the range and decide if I need an octave shift or not to fit in a comfortable range.  If I don't bother to change octaves then what I play will be 1 octave below the original treble clef version.

BTW, Bass to Treble clef is the exact opposite of what I said above.
I plays 'Bones, crumpets, coronets, floosgals, youfonymums 'n tubies.

Re: Just a little question

Reply #6 –
It might be helpful to note a straight octave shift is 7 times.  For example, to shift a bass clef to a treble shifted down for tenors, press the down arrow 5 times (12 - 7).
Since 1998

Re: Just a little question

Reply #7 –
Quote
I usually move things up 5 times for a start, then look at the range and decide if I need an octave shift or not to fit in a comfortable range.  If I don't bother to change octaves then what I play will be 1 octave below the original treble clef version.

Not shifting octaves may change the texture of a chord, though, if you're not playing by yourself. 

!NoteWorthyComposerClip(2.0,Single)
|Clef|Type:Treble
|Chord|Dur:Half|Pos:-2,0,2
|Chord|Dur:Half|Pos:-7,-2,2
|Bar
|Chord|Dur:Whole|Pos:-2,2,7
|Bar|Style:Double
!NoteWorthyComposerClip-End

It's important to respect the composer's wishes.

Re: Just a little question

Reply #8 –
Quote from: Lawrie Pardy –
The UP 12 times choice will put you in the original octave but in most cases you'll have more ledger lines than you can count.  A fruitless exercise IMHO.
Depends on the instrument. For piano, clefs are changed to reduce leger lines. Every time I change a clef, the notes get shifted ±12. I have my own User Tool for this. I've never posted it because few folks here do arranging for piano.

Often I need to take string quartet music and arrange it for flute and piano. A tool lets me convert those moveavble clefs into something I can read without worrying about whether I've shifted notes into the wrong octave.

David: It is hard to know what the composer's wishes are. Generally, listening to a competent perfomance is a much better guide than looking at the music. I rarely play popular music the way it is written. Most of it has notes that are obviously wrong and rhythm patterns that are absurd.
Registered user since 1996

Re: Just a little question

Reply #9 –
Hi Rick,

When working with some music, if you change a note you change the entire texture of the sound.  The trio part in Mood Indigo, for instance, relies on an odd positioning of the trumpet, trombone and clarinet parts.  If you moved the notes of one up or down, you would lose that effect.  Similarly, you can use the same nominal notes of a chord, and place them within the same octave, or spread them out over two or three octaves.  Open voicing is different than close voicings.  And if you have a Db9, that sounds different from a Db/9.  I think.   You may be writing deliberately in a certain range for a particular instrument to get a desired timbre from that instrument that doesn't exist an octave up or down.  For instance, a grand piano has some marvellously deep bass tones, but move them up to the top of the bass clef, and you don't have that.
 
Pop music, yes, I agree there's usually room to improve according to taste.  The audience might not agree, but... 

If you're looking at tinkering with someone's transcription of a recording, there will often be mistakes.  However, when you fiddle with someone's arrangement, though, you're disagreeing with the arranger's intent.  But an arranger is doing more than orchestrating, she or he is taking someone else's work and doing something with it for a purpose.

I think the performer has to be cautious in correcting what appears to be a mistake, because it may not be a mistake, it may be a deliberate attempt to achieve something.

All I'm saying, don't jump an octave without being alert to why the note was initially placed where it was.

Re: Just a little question

Reply #10 –
At the beginning of the recapitulation in the first movement of Beethoven's 3d symphony, a solo horn comes in, in the key of the recapitulation, but four measures before the rest of the orchestra gets there. Beethoven's copyist was sure it was an error, and took it out. Beethoven threw one of his famous fits, and the "error" was restored. David is certainly right that the composer generally knows best, and that his or her placement of notes can't be tampered without changing the sound, usually for the worse.

That being said, though, there are a number of instances in which music needs to be shifted an octave when transcribing it to different ensembles. The effect of close harmony, in particular, changes dramatically when you change instruments. What sounds great in three flutes all within the space of an octave can sound pretty bad if a piano plays the same notes, and to get a similar effect you may have to move one of the voices to a different octave. There is also, often, a need to get notes into an octave where they are playable. No pianist is going to be able to handle the entire range of a forte chord written for full orchestra - there aren't enough fingers. You are going to have to drop some notes and shift others. One of the skills of a great arranger is the ability to get the spirit of the music right when it is moved to instruments the composer never conceived of. This may require different voice spacing from the original, to accommodate to different instrumental timbres or ranges. This is, of course, why we call them "arrangers" and not "transcribers."

Just be careful. The bassoon solo at the beginning of Stravinsky's Rite of Spring is up there where bassoons never go for a very good reason.

Cheers,

Bill

Re: Just a little question

Reply #11 –
Quote from: Rick G. –
Generally, listening to a competent perfomance is a much better guide than looking at the music.

Quote from: William Ashworth –
... the composer generally knows best, and that his or her placement of notes can't be tampered without changing the sound, usually for the worse.
I, for one, am glad that Ravel didn't take Mussorgsky's piano note clusters too seriously when he scored Pictures at an Exhibition.

Perhaps we should agree to disagree.

It is likely that our opinions on this have been formed by experience. When I arrange a piece, it usually because someone is paying to hear it. My goal is to make the music fit the occasion.
Registered user since 1996
 

Re: Just a little question

Reply #12 –
I'm not sure we disagree, Rick. I think the next paragraph of my previous post covers the Ravel/Moussorgsky example you point to, and with which I agree completely.

In fact, when composers rearrange their own works for different instruments, they do this themselves. Compare the original eight-cello-and-soprano version of Villa-Lobos's Bachianas Brasilieras No. 5 with the arrangement he made later for guitar and soprano. The guitar part certainly doesn't have the notes of all eight cellos in it. Nor could the guitarist play it if it did.

The point is to make changes in chord spacing and note registers carefully, and in line with the composer's original concept of the work. Which Ravel certainly did.

Quote from: William Ashworth –
One of the skills of a great arranger is the ability to get the spirit of the music right when it is moved to instruments the composer never conceived of. This may require different voice spacing from the original, to accommodate to different instrumental timbres or ranges. This is, of course, why we call them "arrangers" and not "transcribers."

Cheers,

Bill