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How to transpose a march?

I'm really having problems wrapping my head around transposing a march I need to rearrange for concertina band. The march has 20 some instrument parts in Eb,Bb, F, and C. Half way through the march it modulates one flatter. I'd like to turn the piece into D modulating into G. I've read http://www.noteworthysoftware.com/composer/faq/95.htm and Googled around but *can't* figure out how to do it.

Could someone please tell me which keyed staves to transpose by how much (I'm assuming the Tools/Transpose Staff command?) and then adjustments for the instrument (I'm assuming the Staff/Properties for Staff/Midi/Transposition command?).

I've spent hours trying to figure it out and just can't! 

-- Rich --

Re: How to transpose a march?

Reply #1 –
G'day Rich,
OK - briefly - there are 2 issues you need to get your head around...

1) In NWC we have an option for "Playback Transposition".  This allows NWC to send the right commands to the MIDI synthesizer engine that really only understands "Concert Pitch" in order for it to play the correct notes.  This is your foundation if you will...

2) Instruments that are considered "Transposing Instruments" have their music written such that the fundamental notes of the instrument is considered to be a "C".  Now, I know that's not very helpful so I'll expand upon it.

A Trumpet is usually a Bb instrument (yes, I know there are C and Eb and D etc. trumpets, but the vast majority are Bb).  So, the fundamental note of the trumpet, that is, the lowest unmodified or open note (no valves in use) that the instrument can play is called a "C".  However, if you compare the absolute pitch of that note to a piano (which is tuned to concert pitch) then you will find that the trumpet is really playing a "Bb"  So the trumpet is considered a Bb instrument.

Now, to make the Bb trumpet SOUND the same pitch as the piano, you must transpose the music the trumpeter is reading.  Because "C" is 2 semitones higher than "Bb" you transpose the music UP by 2 semitones.  So, if the music was originally written in C, then the trumpet version must be written in D.

Contrariwise, to convert a trumpet part to concert, you transpose it DOWN 2 semitones, so if the trumpet part was in "C", then to put it into concert you must lower everything by 2 semitones - to the key of "Bb".  See the connection?

OK, to convert an Eb part to concert, you must lower it a major 6th or 9 semitones.  E.G. if the Eb part is in "D", then the concert part would be in "F"

I hope this is a bit clearer - it's hard to get your head around unless you use it...

OK, this is where point 1) above comes in.  If you write a part for an Eb instrument in NWC, in order for it to play back using the correct pitches, you need to correct the "playback transposition" by LOWERING it by 9 semitones.

N.B.  You MAY need to take into account octave shifts too.  E.G. A Baritone sax is really 21 semitones lower than written, not 9 'cos it sounds 9 semitones PLUS an octave (another 12 semitones) lower than written.

The best way to start your project is to get everything into concert pitch first.  So, ALL Bb instruments go down 2 semitones, all Eb instruments go down 9 semitones, all F instruments go down 7 semitones and C instruments remain unchanged.

Using NWC, notate as written in your source charts WITHOUT worrying about playback transpositions, then use NWC to transpose according to the right number of semitones while having the "Update Staff playback transposition" UNCHECKED.

The piece will now play back correctly in concert pitch.

From there I'm sure you'll be able to find your way...
I plays 'Bones, crumpets, coronets, floosgals, youfonymums 'n tubies.

Re: How to transpose a march?

Reply #2 –
Lawrie has explained the theory behind this very well, but there's a shortcut when it comes to actually doing the work. Your piece is written in what is known as a "conductor's score," which means it has all the parts written out exactly as the players see them, transposed to fit their instruments. From your description, I'd guess it's in the key of C, modulating to F. To change it to D modulating to G, you simply have to move everything up by two semitones and add two sharps to the key signature. The parts written in C move up to D, the parts written in Bb move up to C, the parts written in Eb move up to F, and so on. Use the staff transposition tool (be sure to uncheck the "update staff playback" box, as that is there to keep a part sounding in concert pitch when you transpose it for an instrument, such as a trumpet, that isn't written in concert pitch). One word of warning: the staff transposition tool won't add a key signature to a part if there isn't one. If the key signature is F, the signature of the transposed part will be G: but if the key signature is C (no sharps or flats), you will have to add the D signature yourself and then audit the accidentals (on the "tools" menu).

Hope this helps.....

Bill

Re: How to transpose a march?

Reply #3 –
Or add the (invisible) C major key signature first.

Re: How to transpose a march?

Reply #4 –
Well, I'll be.....! Didn't know you could do that. Thanks, Peter.

- Bill

Re: How to transpose a march?

Reply #5 –
Some very minor clarifications. 
Quote
2) Instruments that are considered "Transposing Instruments" have their music written such that the fundamental notes of the instrument is considered to be a "C".
 
Fundamentals are a brass concept and don't really apply to woodwinds.  The lowest note on a Bb clarinet is a written E, which is concert D.  On a tenor sax, it's a written Bb, which is concert Ab.  On alto sax, it's a written Bb which is concert D.  The name of the transposing woodwinds is taken from the concert pitch that sounds when a C is fingered.  In the sax family, this makes it easier to switch from the Eb horns to the Bb ones.  The music is transposed so you finger the note you see on the staff the same way; if you want a tenor sax and an alto sax to play the same note at the same time, you write one note for the one, and another note for the other.
Quote
To change it to D modulating to G, you simply have to move everything up by two semitones and add two sharps to the key signature.
Shortcuts are dangerous, because they're error-prone.  Try it with these notes: accidental Bb and accidental E# in the key of C major.  Simply using the transposing tool, up two semitones, you'll be in D major with a C natural accidental and an F double sharp.  Using the shortcut, by adding the two sharps to the key signature and moving up two semitones you end up with C natural accidental, (good) and F# (bad).

If you need to move other intervals as well, the odd ones may not work because shifting the notes up or down moves one position at a time on the staff.  Sometimes that's a whole tone, sometimes only a semitone.






 

Re: How to transpose a march?

Reply #6 –
Quote from: David Palmquist –
Some very minor clarifications.   
Fundamentals are a brass concept and don't really apply to woodwinds.  The lowest note on a Bb clarinet is a written E, which is concert D.  On a tenor sax, it's a written Bb, which is concert Ab.  On alto sax, it's a written Bb which is concert D.  The name of the transposing woodwinds is taken from the concert pitch that sounds when a C is fingered.  In the sax family, this makes it easier to switch from the Eb horns to the Bb ones.  The music is transposed so you finger the note you see on the staff the same way; if you want a tenor sax and an alto sax to play the same note at the same time, you write one note for the one, and another note for the other.

Oops, you're quite right David.  Being a raspberry blower myself I tend to forget the details of some other folk...  :)
I plays 'Bones, crumpets, coronets, floosgals, youfonymums 'n tubies.

Re: How to transpose a march?

Reply #7 –
To those of us who have no competence whatsoever in blowing air into or at something and making a pleasant sound, it is amazing that there is  no simplification of the system of writing music for these instruments or of altering the pitch to a logical character
Tony

Re: How to transpose a march?

Reply #8 –
G'day Tony,
actually mate, and I know this is somewhat strange, but the method IS the easy way...

E.G.  Saxes come in 2 broad flavours: Bb (Soprano and Tenor) and Eb (Alto and Baritone).  Because of the transpositions they all have identical fingering with respect to the dots on the page...

Ditto with Saxhorns and Trumpets: Bb (Trumpet, Cornet, Trombone, Euphonium, Baritone, Bb Bass or Tuba) and Eb (Sop. Cornet, Tenor Horn, Eb Bass or Tuba)
Yes, I know there are exceptions - Tuba and Trombone are usually notated in concert bass clef for orchestra and jazz and there are Trumpets and Tubas in other keys, but in British tradition brass bands they are pretty much always in Bb and Eb and most often written in transposed treble clef.  Thus fingering is always the same - the musician only needs to learn it once, then no matter what instrument they're playing they just "play the dots".

More complex for the arranger/composer but MUCH simpler for the musician.
I plays 'Bones, crumpets, coronets, floosgals, youfonymums 'n tubies.

Re: How to transpose a march?

Reply #9 –
Lawrie,

In all of this I can be sure only of one thing , that you are almost certainly right!  My reactions are geting slower with age -  we had an earthquake last night and I slept through it.

Tony

Re: How to transpose a march?

Reply #10 –
Whew - a lot of stuff to wrap my head around!

One of the wrinkles you guys didn't address was that the first half of the piece is in the key of Eb and the second half is in the key of Ab. At least I think it is. For instance:

The 2nd staff says "Flute", the staff key is in Eb and 1st note is a B.
The 4th staff says "Bb Clarinet", staff key F, 1st note C.
The 5th staff says "Eb Alto", staff key C, 1st note C.
The 14th staff says "F horns", staff key Bb, 1st note F

That UNCHECKED "Update Staff playback transposition" was key. So far I've been able to move transpose the Bb instrument staves into Eb and make them sound good. I'll work on the others and then at the end transpose ALL the staves into D.

Certainly is confusing to a non-classical/band guy like me!

-- Rich --

Re: How to transpose a march?

Reply #11 –
G'day Rich,
Quote from: ecotectoo –
Whew - a lot of stuff to wrap my head around!

One of the wrinkles you guys didn't address was that the first half of the piece is in the key of Eb and the second half is in the key of Ab. At least I think it is. For instance:

Actually, if you're using |Tools|Transpose Staff...| as you appear to be, and as you certainly should, then the key change partway through doesn't matter.  NWC will handle things correctly.

Quote
The 2nd staff says "Flute", the staff key is in Eb and 1st note is a B.
The 4th staff says "Bb Clarinet", staff key F, 1st note C.
The 5th staff says "Eb Alto", staff key C, 1st note C.
The 14th staff says "F horns", staff key Bb, 1st note F

Soo, the concert pitches are:
Flute: B
Bb Clar.: Bb
Eb Alto: Eb
F Horns: Bb

Hmm, I reckon that flute is really a Bb, does it have a nat. sign in front of it?

Probably a Bb (concert) chord in the making...

Quote
That UNCHECKED "Update Staff playback transposition" was key. So far I've been able to move transpose the Bb instrument staves into Eb and make them sound good. I'll work on the others and then at the end transpose ALL the staves into D.

How I'd do this is:
ALL Bb instrument staves - use NWC to automatically transpose DOWN 2 semitones
ALL Eb instrument staves - use NWC to automatically transpose DOWN 9 semitones
ALL F instrument staves - use NWC to automatically transpose DOWN 7 semitones

THEN take into account octave shifts - Tenor sax is really 14 semitones, not 2; Bari sax is 21 semitones, not 9 etc...  Just add 12 semitones per octave shift required (or is that take away...:)  )

Now everything is in Eb concert pitch and the key change part way through is already looked after.

For the transposition to D, just take everything down another semitone - and as your transposition is truly to a different key, you still want update playback transposition UNCHECKED.

Quote
Certainly is confusing to a non-classical/band guy like me!

:)

<edit> Just re-read you're post - I think I missed the point that you actually are doing what I suggested - sorry to be redundant
I plays 'Bones, crumpets, coronets, floosgals, youfonymums 'n tubies.
 

Re: How to transpose a march?

Reply #12 –
Quote from: Lawrie Pardy –
Hmm, I reckon that flute is really a Bb, does it have a nat. sign in front of it?
No, just says "Flute". About half of the other instruments just say their names too and the other half say what key they are such as "Eb Baritone Saxophone".
Quote
How I'd do this is:
ALL Bb instrument staves - use NWC to automatically transpose DOWN 2 semitones
ALL Eb instrument staves - use NWC to automatically transpose DOWN 9 semitones
ALL F instrument staves - use NWC to automatically transpose DOWN 7 semitones
That's very clear - thanks!
Quote
THEN take into account octave shifts - Tenor sax is really 14 semitones, not 2; Bari sax is 21 semitones, not 9 etc...  Just add 12 semitones per octave shift required (or is that take away...
Actually I'm rearranging the piece for concertina band which has all parts scored in the same clef and key. Concertinas are "C" instruments (typically but not always...). Their range is usually 3 1/2 octaves each and there are piccolo, treble, tenor, baritone, cello, bass and contrabass concertinas. Each is a 5th different in pitch. All the parts are scored in treble clef but depending on which instrument you play it comes out in the "correct" octave. The fingering is identical for all the instruments so anyone can pick up any box and read whatever score and play the part right off. The only tricky box is that some of the basses and all the contrabasses are single-action (they only sound on one bellows direction - because the reeds are so huge there's not room for more than a couple octaves of them). They take so much air that you can only get 3 or 4 notes before you run out. The bellows have "gills" in them that allow you do suck in another fill very quickly as they automatically open when you expand the bellows for another run.

Yes - I do use the octave shift thing a lot with this type of score....

If anyone's interested I could post a few links of concertina bands playing?

-- Rich --

Re: How to transpose a march?

Reply #13 –
Quote from: ecotectoo –
No, just says "Flute". About half of the other instruments just say their names too and the other half say what key they are such as "Eb Baritone Saxophone".

Sorry, I meant the first note - Flutes are "C" instruments, but you said the first note was a "B" - I reckon it should be a Bb so I asked if it had a nat in front of it...  If not, then it IS a Bb 'cos of the key sig.

Quote
Concertinas are "C" instruments (typically but not always...). Their range is usually 3 1/2 octaves each and there are piccolo, treble, tenor, baritone, cello, bass and contrabass concertinas. Each is a 5th different in pitch. All the parts are scored in treble clef but depending on which instrument you play it comes out in the "correct" octave. The fingering is identical for all the instruments so anyone can pick up any box and read whatever score and play the part right off.

Umm, this sounds like a transposing instrument situation...  Or did I miss something?  If the Treble Concertina is pitched in Concert C and the Tenor is a 5th down, then the Tenor would be in F - the instrument I mean - which would require transposing the part UP from concert...  Or has the mechanics of the concertina been manipulated to make this unnecessary...  <picture a bearded bloke with a confused look on 'is face>
I plays 'Bones, crumpets, coronets, floosgals, youfonymums 'n tubies.

Re: How to transpose a march?

Reply #14 –
Rich, I'd be interested in hearing a couple of sound files of a concertina orchestra, please.

Quote
The 5th staff says "Eb Alto", staff key C, 1st note C.
 
To confuse you a little more, this could be alto clarinet or alto sax, both of which transpose by the same amount.  It also could be an alto horn, which is a small brass instrument that looks like a euphonium, but smaller.

Lawrie's written a fine explanation of transposition; for further information you might try http://www.dolmetsch.com/musictheory19.htm.  The article by John Howell is a bit academic, but the one by Brian Blood is fairly straightforward. 


You might look at this page too, for an overview http://www.dolmetsch.com/musictheory26.htm#transposing but don't take it as gospel.

I'm not sure if I understand what the author is trying to say with "To play the note C in C major, a B flat clarinet part notates a B flat in a part bearing a key signature with 2 flats, the key signature for B flat major... "  I believe he meant to write "To play the note C in C major, a Bb clarinet part notates a D in a part bearing a key signature with 2 sharps, the key signature for D major..."

It's easier to write the part than it is to explain why you would transpose this way. 

Re: How to transpose a march?

Reply #15 –
Quote from: David Palmquist –
Rich, I'd be interested in hearing a couple of sound files of a concertina orchestra, please.
http://home.comcast.net/~r-morse/sounds/Liberty-Bell.m4a
http://home.comcast.net/~r-morse/sounds/Reapers-Chorus.mp3
http://home.comcast.net/~r-morse/sounds/Glenn-Miller-Medley.m4a

Note that some of the instruments are voiced very much like their orchestral counterparts. Everything (but for the train whistle in the GM medley) you hear are concertinas.

-- Rich --

Re: How to transpose a march?

Reply #16 –
What a great sound!  I particularly liked the percussive train quasi-drum shuffle sound in Chattanooga Choo-choo.   That whole medley was nicely done.  I started with Reaper, liked it, went to the Miller, enjoyed it too, and now I'm listening to the Sousa. 

Enjoyed them all very much.  Listening prompted me to google concertina, and I came across http://www.concertina.net/ so I'll be exploring there a bit.

Thanks for letting me hear the recordings.  Great stuff.

Re: How to transpose a march?

Reply #17 –
Quote from: ecotectoo –
Enjoyed them all very much.  Listening prompted me to google concertina, and I came across http://www.concertina.net/ so I'll be exploring there a bit.
Yup - that's where I hang out a lot. We're having a very interesting go at isomorphic keyboards at the moment. I play a concertina version of one. Its layout has "taught" me a lot about music theory - but that doesn't help me with my NWC notation issues!

-- Rich --