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Topic: NWC2 beta 2.13 crash (Read 20990 times) previous topic - next topic

NWC2 beta 2.13 crash

Eric,
I just had a crash - NWC2 just disappeared - I was in the file open dialogue about to search for a file and it simply closed down on me.

I have had a similar shutdown within the last couple of days but I don't remember the circumstances...

My PC is generally very reliable (except when I forget to suck the dust out of the CPU's heatsink ;)   ) so I don't _think_ it is attributable to faults in the machine but I'm open to suggestions...
I plays 'Bones, crumpets, coronets, floosgals, youfonymums 'n tubies.

Re: NWC2 beta 2.13 crash

Reply #1
Strange. I've found 2.13 to be quite stable.
Over the last few days I have been polishing a User Tool that dumps thousands of keystrokes into the "Export Graphic File" dialog box. Beta 2.13 has only crashed once, and that was when GDI resources were below 55%. My crash was likely a memory corruption. I had to reboot to get NWC2 to run again without GPF's. I couldn't reproduce the problem.

I believe File->Open... is a "Windows Common Dialog" box. You may get the same problem in other applications.

Meanwhile, I'll see if I can crash 2.13 for you. I seem to have some talent in that area ...
Registered user since 1996

Re: NWC2 beta 2.13 crash

Reply #2
Thanks Rick,
it'll be interesting to see what you come up with...

My PC works pretty hard, I commonly have 5 or 6 applications up at once, often going well over that, with windows spread across 2 monitors.  One of the apps I often have running is a digital TV that takes up quite a lot of resources - it is occasionally flaky, but it wasn't running either time that NWC2 crashed on me...

The other sometimes resource hungry app that is _always_ open is my Groupwise client (running in caching mode) - when it is updating either from a NG or to the Groupwise server at my office it can just about bring everything else to a halt, but it hasn't, to my knowledge, actually caused anything to crash.

I'll try to keep track of what I'm doing in case it happens again.  I do have to say though, NWC is absolutely the most stable app I've ever used, even the NWC2 beta's have hardly caused any problems and you almost expect odd issues with beta's.  Full marks to Eric!
I plays 'Bones, crumpets, coronets, floosgals, youfonymums 'n tubies.

Re: NWC2 beta 2.13 crash

Reply #3
Lawrie, over the years, there have been two or three reports that are similar to your scenario. Unfortunately, the cause of this is unknown. Is there anything in your system logs that might indicate the nature of the failure? You can do this via right click on My Computer, Manage, then Event Viewer.

Re: NWC2 beta 2.13 crash

Reply #4
By the way, I assume that this is a Windows XP machine.

Are you using a Thumbnail view in the Open box? Can you reproduce this? Do you have any software installed that "enhances" the function of the standard Windows File Open/Save common dialogs?

Re: NWC2 beta 2.13 crash

Reply #5
G'day Eric,
checked out the event logs - nada... :(

One thing that may be of interest...

My PC is NEVER off - it is as much a work machine as my PC at the office - I'm on 24 hr call so I need to have my machine available "on tap" at all times.  As a result, NWC2 (I rarely use NWC1 these days) may be running literally for weeks at a time.

If there is a memory leak of some kind this may reveal it, but it happens so rarely that I doubt it is a fault of this nature.

There is plenty of free disk space, so a lack of swap space is not likely to be an issue.  The system has 1 GB of RAM which seems to be ample for the applications I run.  Video card has 128 MB but as I don't play many games and none of them require heavy duty graphic support it is unlikely to be video related.

CPU is a 3 GHz P4 in hyperthreading mode.

One possibility is the printer driver - Kyocera Mita FS-1010 KX - We have had Kyocera driver issues but they are usually HP PCL compatibility issues rather than system flakiness.  However, as Windows seems to have so much invested in the printer driver for other system related activities...

PC is on a Novell Netware 6.5 network running the latest (4.91 SP2) client, all Microsoft critical patches are up to date.  One thing that did change recently, I finally bit the bullet and went to IE7 - I do NOT like the layout but I expect I'll get used to it - system performance does seem to have improved in some areas so the up(?)grade may be beneficial.

The file being opened (<edit> - I was actually about to look for it in order to open it) at the time of the most recent crash was on the desktop - I normally open files from my home directory on the server...

I just realised, the 2 crashes I've had both occcurred post IE7 installation - curious...
I plays 'Bones, crumpets, coronets, floosgals, youfonymums 'n tubies.

Re: NWC2 beta 2.13 crash

Reply #6
G'day Eric,

By the way, I assume that this is a Windows XP machine.

Yup, Media Center (ms spelling) Edition

Quote
Are you using a Thumbnail view in the Open box? Can you reproduce this? Do you have any software installed that "enhances" the function of the standard Windows File Open/Save common dialogs?

a) No to the thumbnails
b) I'll try to reproduce it but I open lots of files...
c) no to open/save dialogue enhancements (unless the Novell client insinuates itself here...) - I try to keep the machine as "vanilla" as possible in order to have as stable a platform as I can.  No one else in the family is even allowed to use it...
I plays 'Bones, crumpets, coronets, floosgals, youfonymums 'n tubies.

Re: NWC2 beta 2.13 crash

Reply #7
Short of a fault in your memory or CPU cache, I don't suspect this as a memory issue. It could, however, be a low level fault of some kind, since NWC2 includes a mechanism to trap typical program faults.

It is also true that Windows Explorer tends to analyze files as you pass by them based on settings in the registry section:

HKEY_CLASSES_ROOT\SystemFileAssociations\.<ext>\shellex\PropertyHandler

Things like corrupted AVI files have been known to give Explorer significant problems. Since the File Open box is running under the NWC2 process, I could imagine a scenario where these problems trigger a serious failure in NWC2, through no fault of its own.

Re: NWC2 beta 2.13 crash

Reply #8
It doesn't normally happen - haven't actually been able to repeat it yet, but I guess anything's possible - I'll keep you informed if it happens again.

Thanks mate.
I plays 'Bones, crumpets, coronets, floosgals, youfonymums 'n tubies.

Re: NWC2 beta 2.13 crash

Reply #9
If it does happen again, try to note if your mouse was hovering over a particular file. The problems I described in reply 7 can literally happen by simply hovering over a file or folder. You do not even have to click the file. Explorer tries to create a tip window with file/folder details as you hover over them. Explorer can literally open the file or folder and attempt to retrieve details about it (if the information has not been cached).

Re: NWC2 beta 2.13 crash

Reply #10
G'day Eric,
If it does happen again, try to note if your mouse was hovering over a particular file. The problems I described in reply 7 will manifest themselves when Explorer tries to create the tip window with file details. This is created as you hover over a file. When you hover over some file types, Explorer literally opens the file and attempts to retrieve details about it.

Good call mate!  Just tried it and while the mouse was hovering over a directory on my desktop it went "bye bye"!

Only problem, after relaunching NWC2 I couldn't get it to do it again.  :(

<edit> - just opened a file, tried again hovering over a directory on the desktop and BANG...  It's not consistent...  :(

I don't necessarily have to open a file either...  If I open the dialogue to the desktop, close the dialogue, then open the dialogue again, change to the desktop again and then "hover" it seems to be repeatable.  (N.B. the current "open" location is in my network drive, not the desktop)

... A pattern seems to be emerging, if I open the dialogue on the desktop, hover over a directory, and then close the dialogue without actually selecting anything, re-open the dialogue and hover over a directory then it crashes...  BTW, It seems to only happen on the desktop...




I plays 'Bones, crumpets, coronets, floosgals, youfonymums 'n tubies.

Re: NWC2 beta 2.13 crash

Reply #11
I'm not exactly sure how to proceed on this. I'll give it more thought. In the mean time, please note anything else you experience in this topic.

Re: NWC2 beta 2.13 crash

Reply #12
G'day Eric,
please see my <edit> on my previous reply - may help...

For now I gotta go get some sleep... 2:00AM here an' I got work to do in the morning...  ;)
I plays 'Bones, crumpets, coronets, floosgals, youfonymums 'n tubies.

Re: NWC2 beta 2.13 crash

Reply #13
I really gotta get a life...

Just did another test - all the comments relating to directories in reply 10 also apply to files...  But still only on the desktop - I can repeat this at will now.
I plays 'Bones, crumpets, coronets, floosgals, youfonymums 'n tubies.

Re: NWC2 beta 2.13 crash

Reply #14
I was just able to reproduce this for the first time. For me, I could not make this happen until I actually saved a .nwc file onto my desktop. Once this is done, I can cause the problem with the following procedure:

  • Open NWC2
  • File, Open
  • Navigate to the desktop and hover over a *.nwc file
  • Cancel the File, Open
  • File, Open again
  • Navigate to the desktop and hover over a *.nwc file
  • NWC2 disappears

If I skip ANY of these steps, then I do not have a problem.

We will investigate this further.

Re: NWC2 beta 2.13 crash

Reply #15
Update: I can also reproduce this with Notepad, using a similar procedure. However, in the case of Notepad, I actually get an exception report (which I allowed to be submitted to Microsoft). I suspect that NWC2's exception handling code actually causes it to silently disappear, whereas Notepad has no such mechanism.

Re: NWC2 beta 2.13 crash

Reply #16
G'day Eric,
just replicated it with notepad too, but as a test I only hovered over a directory - still got crashed.

I'm gonna remove ALL nwc files from my desktop and try again...  Will report back.
I plays 'Bones, crumpets, coronets, floosgals, youfonymums 'n tubies.

Re: NWC2 beta 2.13 crash

Reply #17
G'day Eric,
yup, still happens with NO .nwc files on my desktop.  I note that it doesn't happen in Word 2k3 OR OpenOffice.org.

I further note that when I tried to click the "debug" button in the submit to ms dialogue that it just closed...

I, too, have let it submit it to ms... twice.

I wonder what's different about the "open" code in Office 2k3 and OpenOffice.org that it doesn't happen...?
I plays 'Bones, crumpets, coronets, floosgals, youfonymums 'n tubies.

Re: NWC2 beta 2.13 crash

Reply #18
Lawrie, that wasn't much sleep.

There are numerous possibilities for different File, Open behavior. Some apps roll their own file dialogs. It could also be the way that an app subclasses the dialogs.

I notice that I am unable to create the problem on my notebook PC, even after enabling pop-up descriptions (which I generally have disabled). I should know more as I test this.

Re: NWC2 beta 2.13 crash

Reply #19
I just realized that my notebook PC is not using IE7. Perhaps IE7 is the catalyst for this problem. I will continue testing.

Re: NWC2 beta 2.13 crash

Reply #20
Just did a quick search of the ms knowledgebase and found no reference to this problem... Gonna google it now...  hmm, not gonna go through 1.88 million results...  Let ms analyze the dumps we've sent...
I plays 'Bones, crumpets, coronets, floosgals, youfonymums 'n tubies.

Re: NWC2 beta 2.13 crash

Reply #21
G'day Eric,


yeah, "no brain, no pain" I guess... ;)

Quote
There are numerous possibilities for different File, Open behavior. Some apps roll their own file dialogs. It could also be the way that an app subclasses the dialogs.

I notice that I am unable to create the problem on my notebook PC, even after enabling pop-up descriptions (which I generally have disabled). I should know more as I test this.

Intrustin'

I just realized that my notebook PC is not using IE7. Perhaps IE7 is the catalyst for this problem. I will continue testing.

I note that I haven't noticed this problem in the past and that when I did, I had recently updated to IE7...  IE7 definitely improved performance in certain areas of normal (non browser related) PC operation for me so I wouldn't wonder that it is involved somehow.

<edit> just checked NWC1.75b - same problem!
I plays 'Bones, crumpets, coronets, floosgals, youfonymums 'n tubies.

Re: NWC2 beta 2.13 crash

Reply #22
Hmm, I think I'd like to note that this is obviously NOT an NWC2 bug given that it ocurrs in notepad as well.

Once again Eric, well done on producing pretty much bug free (read "crash free") code!

I can actually remember when microsoft pretty much didn't release code with bugs...  Does anyone remember the CP/M versions of MultiPlan?  I only ever saw 2 versions of it, 1.05 and 1.06 over a period of about 4 years.  AFAIK 1.? to 1.04 were never released, 1.05 was the first shipping version.  1.06 fixed an obscure calculation bug that only appeared under very specific circumstances.  When we approached ms about it we had to take our ORIGINAL floppy disk in to their office at Frenchs Forest (in Sydney, Australia) and they overwrote it with the updated version!

Shame their quality control isn't as good anymore...  (yeah, I know, modern apps "do sooo much more", but QC is QC and there's no excuse for being lax about it.  Especially at the price we Australians have to pay for ms "stuff").

In fairness though, ms aren't the only culprits.  Most large proprietry vendors seem to have QC problems and continually release buggy code.  At least ms provide updates that mostly actually work...
I plays 'Bones, crumpets, coronets, floosgals, youfonymums 'n tubies.

Re: NWC2 beta 2.13 crash

Reply #23
I can confirm that this problem is caused by an Access Violation in the standard Windows' open dialog box. We will definitely update the NWC2 crash guard mechanism to ensure that the user receives some kind of error message before the program disappears.

So far, I have discovered that Windows reports this error as recoverable, but NWC(2) is completely unsuccessful at actually recovering from it.

Re: NWC2 beta 2.13 crash

Reply #24
Eric,

I have had the same behavior happen to me that Lawrie describes while using IE6.  So I don't think it's just germaine to the latest IE browser update.

Re: NWC2 beta 2.13 crash

Reply #25
Michael, what are your system details (mainly CPU)? I ask because we do not allow our older CPUs to upgrade to IE7 here (such as my notebook). So, it could be an issue involving new CPUs (which support things like DEP).

Re: NWC2 beta 2.13 crash

Reply #26
We are now able to rule out IE7 as a contributing factor in this Windows File Open bug.

Re: NWC2 beta 2.13 crash

Reply #27
Hi Lawriie,
I know this might sound" corney",but shouldnt it be better after a deragmentation.
Timotius B.

Re: NWC2 beta 2.13 crash

Reply #28
On machines that exhibit this problem, the easiest way to avoid the issue is by turning off the Windows Explorer option:

"Show pop-up description for folder and desktop items"

This can be found in Explorer's Tools, Folder Options, View tab, Advanced settings, at or near the bottom. Once this option is disabled, you should not have trouble with this.

The next version of NWC2 Beta includes better status messages during this failure. However, NWC2 will not be able to recover from this error.

Re: NWC2 beta 2.13 crash

Reply #29
G'day Timoteus,
...shouldnt it be better after a deragmentation.

[move]:)[/move]

I like corn...
I plays 'Bones, crumpets, coronets, floosgals, youfonymums 'n tubies.

Re: NWC2 beta 2.13 crash

Reply #30
I don't know much about operating systems, but I have an old version of Windows XP, and tried your 'crash n' burn' procedure twenty times in a row, and nothing happened. Hmmm...
Supported by The Brotherhood of Pandas

Re: NWC2 beta 2.13 crash

Reply #31
I'm in one of our college computer labs and I am able to reproduce the problem in notepad.  FWIW, the system I am currently on:
- HP Compaq dc5100
- 3GHz intel Pentium 4 HT
- 1GB of ram
- brand new this summer
- IE 6
- no themes (the service is turned off, --> we get the classic windows look)

HTH
Sincerely,
Francis Beaumier
Green Bay, WI

Re: NWC2 beta 2.13 crash

Reply #32
oh yeah .. XPSP2 -- reasonably up to date.
Sincerely,
Francis Beaumier
Green Bay, WI

Re: NWC2 beta 2.13 crash

Reply #33
- no themes (the service is turned off, --> we get the classic windows look)

I do that deliberately - I HATE the newer XP interface...
I plays 'Bones, crumpets, coronets, floosgals, youfonymums 'n tubies.