Special Endings and ties. Visual glitch

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Special Endings and ties. Visual glitch

2006-09-05 06:19 pm

The help entry for Special Endings says:

Quote

The special ending containing the first ending must always appear before any other special ending, and must be concluded using a Master Repeat Close bar line.

This always seemed arbitrary to me. I don't see why the ties should look different in this clip:

Code: [Select · Download]

!NoteWorthyComposerClip(2.0,Single)
|Rest|Dur:Half
|Chord|Dur:Half|Pos:-8^,-5^
|Bar
|Ending|Endings:1,2,3
|Chord|Dur:4th|Pos:-8,-5
|Rest|Dur:4th
|Rest|Dur:Half
|Bar|Style:Double
|Ending|Endings:4
|TempoVariance|Style:Fermata|Pause:0|Pos:5|Justify:Center|Placement:AtNextNote
|Chord|Dur:Whole|Pos:-8,-5
|Bar|Style:SectionClose
|Rest|Dur:Half
|Chord|Dur:Half|Pos:-8^,-5^
|Bar
|Ending|Endings:2,3
|Chord|Dur:4th|Pos:-8,-5
|Rest|Dur:4th
|Rest|Dur:Half
|Bar|Style:Double
|Ending|Endings:4
|TempoVariance|Style:Fermata|Pause:0|Pos:5|Justify:Center|Placement:AtNextNote
|Chord|Dur:Whole|Pos:-8,-5
|Bar|Style:SectionClose
!NoteWorthyComposerClip-End

I can work around it, but IMO, I shouldn't have to.

Re: Special Endings and ties. Visual glitch

Reply #1 – 2006-09-05 07:01 pm

The first ending is where the tied note(s) is remembered. The later endings then recall what is remembered in the first ending. The later endings, by NWC definition, create a discontinuity in the visual notation stream, since by NWC definition, they are preceded by a first ending, and could never have a tie extending directly into them.

Re: Special Endings and ties. Visual glitch

Reply #2 – 2006-09-05 08:24 pm

I take: "by NWC definition" to mean that this behaviour is unlikely to change.

That's OK; this is not a problem, just an irritant.

Re: Special Endings and ties. Visual glitch

Reply #3 – 2006-09-06 06:03 am

Yeah, this is probably not going to change.

Re: Special Endings and ties. Visual glitch

Reply #4 – 2006-09-06 11:26 pm

Just out of curiosity, when would you use a 2nd-time ending without a first? I can't think of one. But I'm not going to be foolish enough to say it can't happen - there are always exceptions!

Re: Special Endings and ties. Visual glitch

Reply #5 – 2006-09-07 01:09 am

Quote from: Ewan Harwood – 2006-09-06 11:26 pm

Just out of curiosity, when would you use a 2nd-time ending without a first?

In choral/vocal music, to have the ending match the verse
Where the first ending is on a different page in another file

Some use NWC only as a sequencer or a "thinking man's karioke machine".

Others actually print music and give it to musicians to play. Some of these musicians actually like to make money, so practice and rehearsal is limited. Clear flow details are crucial. If you have used any of Lawrie Pardy's SwingDing fonts, you may notice how many characters are used just for flow instructions.

Re: Special Endings and ties. Visual glitch

Reply #6 – 2006-09-07 07:05 am

Re: Special Endings and ties. Visual glitch

Reply #7 – 2006-09-07 07:49 am

G'day David,
unfortunately it doesn't fix the tie problem mentioned above.

If you take your clip and place a tie from the D (assuming treble clef) immediately before the 1st time bar you get what NWC normally does... OK so far.

Now preview it

You get 2 ties -
the first goes from the D and ends in limbo, the second starts in limbo and finishes on the D in the 2nd time bar. The ties even cross over each other!

Re: Special Endings and ties. Visual glitch

Reply #8 – 2006-09-07 08:12 am

The workaround is simple enough. You just make the Special ending on the top staff invisible and layer it with a dummy staff with a Visibility:Always Special Ending. Check what ever you want in this Special Ending. Playback will be off for the dummy staff.

I was just hoping that NWC2 could know that it should tie into the first Special Ending it encountered without requiring it to have 1st Ending checked.

Re: Special Endings and ties. Visual glitch

Reply #9 – 2006-09-07 02:34 pm

But it would never be correct to have an unbroken tie into the second ending since, if there's a second ending, then there must be a first ending too, and that is always placed before the second ending. The first ending will always break the tie into the second ending.

Re: Special Endings and ties. Visual glitch

Reply #10 – 2006-09-07 02:52 pm

Quote from: Peter Edwards – 2006-09-07 02:34 pm

...then there must be a first ending too, and that is always placed before the second ending...

I have an example of a commercially procduced score where this is not the case, and when you read the score it does seem logical. There is, from memory:

2nd ending
1st,3rd ending
4th ending

No opinion of 'right or wrong', just mentioning that I have this example... It is reasonably recent - within the last 5 or 6 years. Unfortunately it is in amongst about 500 or so other charts I have and I don't remember which one it is so I can't actually name it for you.

Re: Special Endings and ties. Visual glitch

Reply #11 – 2006-09-07 03:53 pm

That would be very confusing. But if you really must I've got a bit closer, but still not perfect.

Code: [Select · Download]

!NoteWorthyComposerClip(2.0,Single)
|Clef|Type:Treble
|Note|Dur:Whole|Pos:0^
|Bar
|Ending|Endings:1,2|Visibility:Never
|Text|Text:" "|Font:StaffItalic|Pos:-6
|Ending|Endings:2
|Note|Dur:4th,Grace|Pos:0^|Visibility:Never
|Note|Dur:Whole|Pos:0
!NoteWorthyComposerClip-End

Re: Special Endings and ties. Visual glitch

Reply #12 – 2006-09-07 09:20 pm

G'day Peter,
that doesn't look bad does it. Pity 'bout the small gap but it certainly look OK to me. I wouldn't have any trouble playing it.

While I haven't tried it I think that Ricks layering method would probably give the best overall results but the problem is fairly academic from my point of view anyway.

I only mentioned the odd score for interest sake and to show that modern music often doesn't follow 'the rules' anymore.

'frinstance, in many of my charts I get special endings that you need to maintain the count for even after 2 or sometimes 3 DS or DC's as well as the more normal repeats. I also get "DS" plus "DS al Coda" in the same song, Codetta's and all manner of weird combinations of flow instructions. Can be quite confusing at times.

Re: Special Endings and ties. Visual glitch

Reply #13 – 2006-09-07 10:38 pm

I think Lawrie's hit the nail on the head with: "... modern music often doesn't follow 'the rules' anymore. ... Can be quite confusing at times." It's probably a reason why we should follow the rules more often - as Rick G. pointed out, we're printing out instructions for people to comprehend in limited time.

I'm having trouble with

In choral/vocal music, to have the ending match the verse
Where the first ending is on a different page in another file

1st,3rd ending
2nd ending
4th ending

but there might be very good page layout reasons to have the 2nd ending first.

Apart from this, I still can't think of a case where you'd have:

||: music | ^1. music :|| something_here | ^2. music | music |

i.e. The tie into the 2nd-time bar never comes from the bar that's printed immediately before it. If that's how the music flows, then the special ending marks are in a confusing (and wrong) place!

Cheers, Ewan
If you need to, please read measure for bar, and for any other language differences, please see the NWC2 "British to American to Australian to South African to ... to Hutt River Provincial" on-line Music Dictionary, Translator and Currency Exchange. There is one, isn't there?

Re: Special Endings and ties. Visual glitch

Reply #14 – 2006-09-07 11:48 pm

Example for Ewan:

Soloist sings Verse 1 and Chorus. The music is a melody line with arpeggiated accompianment.

Choir sings Verses 2-4 with Chorus. The music is Chords (harmony)
Each (choir) Chorus has a slightly different ending.

The verses are numbered. 1, 2, 3, 4

Surely, one would want the ending #'s to match the verse #'s

Re: Special Endings and ties. Visual glitch

Reply #15 – 2006-09-08 01:48 am

I think we've moved beyond discussing how slurs and ties come into second endings, so I'll continue with just discussing the use of special endings generally.

Is it true that the special endings generally mean, "Upon repeating the passage, when arriving at the first ending, skip it and go to the second ending?" If the second ending also repeats, then ""Upon repeating the passage a second time, when arriving at the first ending, skip it and skip the second ending. Instead go to the third ending?" If there is no first ending, then the second ending is meaningless. To use the sign as a substitute for other flow direction commands is creative but probably just plain wrong.

Just because it's in a professionally printed score doesn't mean it's right. We see lots of charts nowadays that are published by big outfits but appear to have been prepared on a computer by the composer or arranger, who may or may not have the background of a professional engraver.

You may remember our recent discussions about unusual time signatures used by Grainger. I understand he was self-taught. That probably explains a lot.

Music notation is a written language and if it isn't written conventionally, there is a risk the performer won't understand it. Before straying too far off the mainstream, we need to ask ourselves, Will the musicians reading the charts understand my novel form of notation? It's all very well to invent new ways of doing things, but written music is a way to communicate the composer's wishes to the performers.

Consider the situtation if the music is used for a while, then put away. Years later, somebody remembers it fondly, and the group decides to use it again. The conductor's score with detailed instructions about the flow directions is lost, or the instructions were only given verbally when the conductor led the group during its earlier performances, and the composer/conductor has now departed. Confusion will reign. Big time.

Re: Special Endings and ties. Visual glitch

Reply #16 – 2006-09-08 01:52 am

Is this it?

| soloist verse 1 | soloist chorus 1 complete ||: choir verses 2,3,4 | choir choruses 2,3,4 | ^2. choir chorus 2 ending :|| ^3. choir chorus 3 ending :|| ^4. choir chorus 4 ending ||

I was going to say that I wouldn't wouldn't want this, as it's not standard, and that as a repetiteur for choirs, I usually just need to know which time it is through the repeat, and that the particular verse number is unimportant (although is is easier for the singers). But then I came up with this:

| soloist verse 1 | soloist chorus 1 complete ||: choir verses 2,3,4,5,6,7 | choir choruses 2,3,4,5,6,7 | ^2.4.6. choir choruses 2,4,6 ending :|| ^3.5. choir choruses 3,5 ending :|| ^7. choir chorus 7 ending || more music ||

There's no way I'd want standard ending numbers - they'd all be one less, and rehearsing would be very confusing. There's a particularly nauseating song (in my opinion) that choirs sing here called "I Am Australian", that has a structure quite similar to this.

So, yes - I now think you have a very strong case for asking for a change in the way ties cross into 2nd, 3rd, etc time endings!

David - your reply has come in while I'm typing this, but I don't think there's an impact - but I am going to change topic with you in a follow-up!

Re: Special Endings and ties. Visual glitch

Reply #17 – 2006-09-08 02:10 am

Standardisation versus ease of use? I usually prefer standards, but in the convoluted case I just showed, I think the standard gets in the way. Something for us all to answer for ourselves?

Grainger was not self-taught musically. He was home-schooled (as we would say now) except for a month in a regular school (whose name I can't remember, but I'm fairly sure was in Melbourne somewhere - Port Melbourne P.S. possibly??). His did have formal lessons in piano. eventually moving to Germany studying under Busoni (who was also a composer). It was generally still the practice that students of an instrument were also expected to write for it.

My composition teacher learned piano (and composition) from another of Busoni's students, and the reports are that Percy had a reputation for failing to complete assigned work, for turning up late to lessons, and for not practicing! He was also not held in high regard by the other students in Busoni's classes.

Still, I'd write in 2½/4 too, if I could come up with some good Grainger.

Re: Special Endings and ties. Visual glitch

Reply #18 – 2006-09-08 02:55 am

Hmm,
just to confuse the issue (and push my fonts

I often create charts where I put in appropriate special endings to get the right flow, and then hide 'em. Of course I then need to be able to make visible special endings for the performer to follow so I use characters from my *Text fonts (normally SwingText).

This also allows me to make the lines cover the full ending they way they orta.

It can also help when the first ending encountered is a 2nd ending but the slur or tie needs to be properly formed as if it was a 1st ending. Just make the hidden ending a 1st one and the text one whatever ya want... Oh yeah, you hide the special ending itself, not the bar and notes etc. associated with it.

See attachment

Re: Special Endings and ties. Visual glitch

Reply #19 – 2006-09-08 03:55 am

Quote

Grainger was not self-taught musically.

We have a new conductor in our band, and last night he spoke of some of the directions Grainger wrote on his scores. He attributed this to Grainger being self-taught. So much for that, eh?

I enjoy playing Grainger, despite the odd forms he used. I see he has an entry in Wikepedia http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Percy_Grainger His "Children's March 'Over The Hills And Far Away'" concert band arrangement makes great use of bass clarinet, my primary horn.

Of course, anyone with an interest in Viking culture is a friend to those of we Scandihoovian descent. When I learned Grainger invited Duke to lecture at NYU (or had the band perform there, depending on your source) in 1930, and in 1932, "ranked Ellington as one of the three greatest composers in the history music, sharing honors (sic) with J. S. Bach and Delius," Grainger immediately became worth paying attention to.

More Grainger sites:
http://www.percygrainger.org/ and http://www.percygrainger.org.uk/ (with a ton of other links.)

Re: Special Endings and ties. Visual glitch

Reply #20 – 2006-09-08 10:29 pm

Hey Lawrie - That is one fine lookin' chart I must say! Very professionalle.

Re: Special Endings and ties. Visual glitch

Reply #21 – 2006-09-09 12:58 am

[glow=red,2,300]Blush[/glow]

Re: Special Endings and ties. Visual glitch

Reply #22 – 2006-09-11 01:37 am

I've done some checking - Granger went to a school in Caroline Street, South Yarra (still a Melbourne suburb), for a term or less.

To me Delius sounds an awful lot like Grainger (or is it the other way around!). And yes, I think Ellington is starting to get recognition. Eventually we'll be able to leave out the adjectives ("black", "American", "twentieth century", "jazz").

From "The Bluffer's Guide to Music": "There are four composers beyond reproach: Mozart, Beethoven, Bach, and your own particular favourite."