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Topic: Playback of colliding notes (Read 3591 times) previous topic - next topic

Playback of colliding notes

In the following clip, I have used a flute and trasposition to make the problem easier to hear, but it can still be heard if the instrument path is removed.

As a piano player, I would play each measure the same way.  NWC2 plays them differently.  I would expect to hear measure 3 in each case. In measure 1, NWC2 effectively ignores the initial half note A flat. In measure 2, it cuts the 5th note (also an A flat) off too short, making it sound like a staccato.

IMO, NWC2 needs to be a bit more intelligent in this area. I don't expect it to analyze all staves on the same midi channel, but it ought to be able to look a 1 staff in context.

Code: [Select · Download]
!NoteWorthyComposerClip(2.0,Single)
|Clef|Type:Bass
|Key|Signature:Bb,Eb,Ab
|Instrument|Name:"Flute"|Patch:73|Trans:24|DynVel:10,30,45,60,75,92,108,127|Pos:9
|TimeSig|Signature:Common
|Chord|Dur:8th|Pos:1|Opts:Stem=Up,Beam=First|Dur2:Half|Pos2:-3,1
|Note|Dur:8th|Pos:3|Opts:Stem=Up,Beam=End
|Note|Dur:8th,Triplet=First|Pos:5|Opts:Stem=Up,Beam=First
|Note|Dur:8th,Triplet|Pos:3|Opts:Stem=Up,Beam
|Note|Dur:8th,Triplet=End|Pos:1|Opts:Stem=Up,Beam=End
|Chord|Dur:Half|Pos:-3,2
|Bar
|RestChord|Dur:8th|Opts:Stem=Up|Dur2:Half|Pos2:-3,1
|Note|Dur:8th|Pos:3|Opts:Stem=Up
|Note|Dur:8th,Triplet=First|Pos:5|Opts:Stem=Up,Beam=First
|Note|Dur:8th,Triplet|Pos:3|Opts:Stem=Up,Beam
|Note|Dur:8th,Triplet=End|Pos:1|Opts:Stem=Up,Beam=End
|Chord|Dur:Half|Pos:-3,2
|Bar
|RestChord|Dur:8th|Opts:Stem=Up|Dur2:4th|Pos2:-3^,1^
|Note|Dur:8th|Pos:3|Opts:Stem=Up
|Note|Dur:8th,Triplet=First|Pos:5|Opts:Stem=Up,Beam=First
|Chord|Dur:8th,Triplet|Pos:1,3|Opts:Stem=Up,Beam
|Chord|Dur:8th,Triplet=End|Pos:-3,1|Opts:Stem=Up,Beam=End
|Chord|Dur:Half|Pos:-3,2
!NoteWorthyComposerClip-End
Registered user since 1996

Re: Playback of colliding notes

Reply #1 –
Rick, if you set the Performance Style to Legato, measures 2 and 3 sound identical.  However, in measure 1, the duration of the e flat is governed by the eighth note, and will only play for that duration.  When 2 notes of different duration using the same channel are played simultaneously or the short note comes after the longer note in the same measure, the short note wins out and the longer note stops playing.  The only way I found to correct this problem is to mute the short note.  This won't work if you enter one note on top of the other by Ctrl Enter, because you can't mute just one of those notes.  See Below:

Code: [Select · Download]
!NoteWorthyComposerClip(2.0,Single)
|Clef|Type:Bass
|Key|Signature:Bb,Eb,Ab
|PerformanceStyle|Style:Legato|Pos:-6|Justify:Right|Visibility:Never
|Instrument|Name:"Flute"|Patch:73|Trans:24|DynVel:10,30,45,60,75,92,108,127|Pos:9
|TimeSig|Signature:Common
|Chord|Dur:8th|Pos:1|Opts:Stem=Up,Beam=First|Dur2:Half|Pos2:-3,1
|Note|Dur:8th|Pos:3|Opts:Stem=Up,Beam=End
|Note|Dur:8th,Triplet=First|Pos:5|Opts:Stem=Up,Beam=First
|Note|Dur:8th,Triplet|Pos:3|Opts:Stem=Up,Beam
|Note|Dur:8th,Triplet=End|Pos:1|Opts:Stem=Up,Beam=End
|Chord|Dur:Half|Pos:-3,2
|Bar
|RestChord|Dur:8th|Opts:Stem=Up|Dur2:Half|Pos2:-3,1
|Note|Dur:8th|Pos:3|Opts:Stem=Up
|Note|Dur:8th,Triplet=First|Pos:5|Opts:Stem=Up,Beam=First
|Note|Dur:8th,Triplet|Pos:3|Opts:Stem=Up,Beam
|Note|Dur:8th,Triplet=End|Pos:1|Opts:Stem=Up,Beam=End
|Chord|Dur:Half|Pos:-3,2
|Bar
|RestChord|Dur:8th|Opts:Stem=Up|Dur2:4th|Pos2:-3^,1^
|Note|Dur:8th|Pos:3|Opts:Stem=Up
|Note|Dur:8th,Triplet=First|Pos:5|Opts:Stem=Up,Beam=First
|Chord|Dur:8th,Triplet|Pos:1,3|Opts:Stem=Up,Beam
|Chord|Dur:8th,Triplet=End|Pos:-3,1|Opts:Stem=Up,Beam=End
|Chord|Dur:Half|Pos:-3,2
|Bar
|RestChord|Dur:8th|Opts:Stem=Down,ArticulationsOnStem|Dur2:Whole|Pos2:1
|Note|Dur:8th|Pos:2|Opts:Stem=Down,Beam=First
|Note|Dur:8th|Pos:3|Opts:Stem=Down,Beam
|Note|Dur:8th|Pos:4|Opts:Stem=Down,Beam=End
|Note|Dur:8th|Pos:2|Opts:Stem=Down,Beam=First
|Note|Dur:8th|Pos:1|Opts:Stem=Down,Beam
|Note|Dur:8th|Pos:0|Opts:Stem=Down,Beam
|Note|Dur:8th|Pos:-1|Opts:Stem=Down,Beam=End
|Bar
|RestChord|Dur:8th|Opts:Stem=Up,ArticulationsOnStem|Dur2:Whole|Pos2:-2
|Note|Dur:8th|Pos:-1|Opts:Stem=Up,Beam=First
|Note|Dur:8th|Pos:0|Opts:Stem=Up,Beam
|Note|Dur:8th|Pos:-2|Opts:Stem=Up,Beam=End,Muted
|Note|Dur:8th|Pos:-3|Opts:Stem=Up,Beam=First
|Note|Dur:8th|Pos:-4|Opts:Stem=Up,Beam
|Note|Dur:8th|Pos:-3|Opts:Stem=Up,Beam
|Note|Dur:8th|Pos:-2|Opts:Stem=Up,Beam=End
!NoteWorthyComposerClip-End

If you look at any of my submissions in Scriptorium you will see that many notes are muted for this reason.

Carl

Re: Playback of colliding notes

Reply #2 –
Quote from: Carl Mill –
Rick, if you set the Performance Style to Legato, measures 2 and 3 sound identical. 

If you set the Performance Style to Staccato, they all sound about the same, but that is hardly my point which was:
Quote
I don't expect it to analyze all staves on the same midi channel, but it ought to be able to look a 1 staff in context.
Registered user since 1996

Re: Playback of colliding notes

Reply #3 –
G'day Rick,
I just did some testing and I'm not totally convinced that it is all NWC...

I did the initial playback on my Yamaha softsynth and had to check 2 or 3 times to be sure I could hear what you were talking about - it is there but so slight as to be indiscernable without a back to back comparo like this.

I then changed, in rotation, to:
  • Microsoft GS Wavetable SW Synth.
  • SB Audigy 2 ZS Sw Synth
  • and both audigy 2 ZS hardware Synths (different sound fonts).

The M$ one was the worst - cutting off the minim Eb in the first chord with the quaver Eb.  The staccato sound of the final triplet is also very evident in the first 2 bars.

The 3 Audigy synths were all about the same as each other, maintaining the Eb in the first chord but still giving the staccato effect on the final triplet Eb in the first 2 bars

As stated above, the Yamaha was almost perfect.  Just a hint of cut off in the finel Eb of the triplet in the first 2 bars but you really have to listen for it.

My conclusion is that the issue is probably a combination of what synth you're using as well as NWC.  NWC is probably the main factor in the shortening of the Eb in the triplet but is not the cause of the minim Eb in the first chord being shortened, that's the synth's fault.
I plays 'Bones, crumpets, coronets, floosgals, youfonymums 'n tubies.

Re: Playback of colliding notes

Reply #4 –
Quote from: Lawrie Pardy –
G'day Rick,
I just did some testing and I'm not totally convinced that it is all NWC...
[snip] the Yamaha was almost perfect.  Just a hint of cut off in the finel Eb of the triplet in the first 2 bars but you really have to listen for it.

Thanks for your thoughtful reply.
I looked at the midi output for the clip. In the 1st measure, two simutaneous A flat note on's are generated. I could well imagine that some sound cards might ignore one while others would send one to an unused channel.  Reverb and 3D enhancement could lessen the cutoff of the later A flat. 

But notation is not midi and midi is not notation.  I would think that part of a good notation to midi translation would be to look at more than just each note in isolation.

A 15 channel (or # of staves) by 127 note array could track how many notes are currently on and the timing of the note off's could be adjusted accordingly.

I don't want to beat this to death. It just seems that the implementation is less than optimal.
Registered user since 1996