Um...I'm taking a stab in the dark at arranging music for an orchestra...

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Um...I'm taking a stab in the dark at arranging music for an orchestra...

2006-05-09 08:11 pm

Here is the latest version of Sunrise Remix (last uploaded at 5/12/6 at 10:52AM CDT)and the original theme by Ricard Strauss upon which it is based, Also Sprach Zarathustra, Op. 30 "Sunrise".

Re: Um...I'm taking a stab in the dark at arranging music for an orchestra...

Reply #1 – 2006-05-10 01:12 am

You have to upgrade your membership. What you can do, though, is to upload your file using http://Yousendit.com, and post the link in this forum.

Yousendit will allow 25 users to download the file within 7 days.

Re: Um...I'm taking a stab in the dark at arranging music for an orchestra...

Reply #2 – 2006-05-10 01:25 pm

Hey, thanks for the Yousendit.com reference...it looks like it worked...so here it is...

My Sunrise Remix, my own personal remix of Ricard Strauss's Also Sprach Zarathustra, Op. 30 "Sunrise."

Setting: this would be performed in place of the show tuning at the beginning of the concert, and the tuning section would be marked ad lib tuning, but I went ahead and put the notes in to give you a general feel.

Right now I am finally past the "getting ideas" stage and have it all entered, but I'm not quite satisfied with it yet. Especially that big band part of it. How can I make that sound more natural? Also, this is one prime example of the desire I have to be able to insert trills and tremolo! It would sure look and sound better, and definitely save time!

Any help would be greatly appreciated!

Bob

Re: Um...I'm taking a stab in the dark at arranging music for an orchestra...

Reply #3 – 2006-05-10 06:51 pm

Re: Um...I'm taking a stab in the dark at arranging music for an orchestra...

Reply #4 – 2006-05-10 08:48 pm

Hey, thanks for the suggestions...I'll try them when I get home and see how they sound!

The reason I didn't speed up the timpani line was because it sounded like a machine gun if it was faster, and in some places it would even sound like a foghorn!

I appreciate the feedback!

You said you're not familiar with the song...here's a link to the original Also Sprach Zarathustra, Op. 30 "Sunrise"
The beginning is quiet, but it gets louder...you may want to turn up your speakers, but if you're in an office setting like myself, be ready to turn them down quickly!

Re: Um...I'm taking a stab in the dark at arranging music for an orchestra...

Reply #5 – 2006-05-10 10:49 pm

It's not that I've not heard the music. I just meant I am not so familiar with the original that I would be able to point out what is right or what is wrong. Are you old enough to remember the theme being used in 2001: A Space Odyssey? The music was perfect for that, in the days when theatres had good sound systems but weren't catering to a deaf audience.

I like what you've done with it so far.

Speaking of loud, at one point I thought your tune had blown my speakers. There was this amazing ripping sound for a couple of bars. Fortunately it didn't seem to do any damage, and I couldn't replicate it, so no problem.

The instrument sounds are partly dependent on your sound system. I don't know what soundfonts I have installed, but I just use the standard NWC instrument tree, with an older SoundblasterLive! soundcard and a 5 speaker logitech system. The tymps sound fairly realistic there, although the first few bars sound like they're being played with hard sticks instead of soft.

You might try playing around with the settings for each dynamic level in each staff, to get a better balance between instruments. This is done in the Default Dynamic Velocities section of the Instrument Tab in Staff Properties. So for instance a forte for a traditionally loud instrument such as trumpet might be set at 75 instead of 92, and left at 92 or increased for a quieter instrument such as a flute.

Re: Um...I'm taking a stab in the dark at arranging music for an orchestra...

Reply #6 – 2006-05-11 01:40 pm

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Are you old enough to remember the theme being used in 2001: A Space Odyssey?

Yup...seen the movie, and I loved it. I liked the part where HAL was singing Daisy, Daisy really slow...! The end of that movie really makes you think about life and death in a way you've never thought about it before...

Here's what I accomplished last night

I took a few of your suggestions...let's go through them...

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The bassoon trill could be placed on a hidden staff, and the visible staff could simply show a series of muted, tied whole notes with a text based trill sign over them.

Good idea. The bassoon, timpani, cello, and double bass have all been placed on hidden staves and the visible staves for these instruments show what the musician would see in the music.

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The bassoon trill is too slow. For instance, bar 17 sounds more lifelike to me when the trill is twice as fast:

I agree. I have doubled the trill speed throughout on the bassoon, cello, and double bass.

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Have you tried playing the tuba an octave lower? To do so, set the tuba staff transposition to 12.

(Actually, -12, but I know what you meant!) I was able to take the tuba part down in octave in some parts, but the range of the tuba did not allow me to take the beginning part down.

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In bar 12, if you wanted an even faster roll on the tymps, without changing the overall tempo for the full score, mute that bar and add a hidden staff

The reason I did not do this is because it sounds like a machine gun if it's any faster, and in some places it becomes a low drone.

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In measure 20, I'd prefer to see a slight gap between the ascending 8th notes - they should be clearly articulated. This can probably be accomplished by changing the 2 8ths to this in the upper voices...and just to this in the lower voices (some muddiness is desirable)

I like your thinking. Done.

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I'm not sure you need dotted halves tripletized in the 12/8 bars. Why not just 3 half notes, no triplets?

I'm not sure of the proper notation for this part, either...normally you tie values together to match the rhythm, but that would be crazy to expect someone to make sense of the mess if it were divided into dotted quarters! I think you are right, though, that I should use halves instead of dotted triplet halves!

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Measures 58 to 60, slur the oboes, clarinets and flutes.

Silly me! I should've that of that myself!

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In bars 61 and 62, see if this articulation gives you more of a swing feel

Actually, I think the musicians would know better how to handle the situation if it were written this way. Also, you changed the notes, and that part of the theme would no longer be present! It sounds great, though! I left this part untouched.

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The reed riff that starts at 66 would typically be where, in a big band, the full sax section comes in. Since you aren't writing for saxes, you could achieve this by increasing the dynamics for the reeds.

Last night I added dynamics to the piece, and I hate to brag, but I amazed myself with the crescendos! I bore in mind what you said about the woodwinds, and they are exceptionally louder than the brass and strings now.

Other:

I remembered what my brother said about the String Ensemble 1 sounding better than Violin, Viola, Cello, and Contrabass when programming classical music, and he was right...I changed each of the five string parts to String Ensemble 1 and it sounds much fuller.

I have reordered the instruments so they are, to the best of my knowledge, in orchestral order. This meant moving the clarinet below the oboe and bassoon, although I'm not sure about that...I'll have to check a score and see.

I want to add an English Horn part, but I know nothing about the instrument. What is its sound comparable to? What style of part is appropriate for the instrument? Complex, like a clarinet? fun like a bassoon? simplified, like a tuba? fanfare-y, like brass? (As a violinist, I was unable to view the instruments in that section of the orchestra...too many violins/violas/flutes in the way!)

I would also like to add a bass drum part and possibly a snare drum part, but I have writingdrumpartsforanythingophobia!

Also thinking about some tubular bells...when I get around to it!

I have cut the end of the song in half, as it went on for forever...

The French horns 1 & 2 are grouped together on one staff, and French horns 3 & 4 are grouped together on a second staff. This is because for some odd reason, hornists like to see two parts on one staff.

I did some research and adjusted each part to fit the range of the instrument, and also to transpose to the correct pitch.

Let me know if you think of anything else! Thanks!

Re: Um...I'm taking a stab in the dark at arranging music for an orchestra...

Reply #7 – 2006-05-11 04:31 pm

Most of my suggestions regarding articulation relate to the midi playback, rather than your notation. Slurring the reed runs, for instance, would be automatically done by the instrumentalists, so you don't need to show the slur on the page. By slurring them, though, you get a smoother playback, so you could get away with just slurring them in hidden playback staffs. The same goes for the swing feel. The players will swing it the way you wrote it first, but the machine doesn't have the musical intuition.

In 61 and 62, I didn't intend to change the notes; I think I copied one of the inner voices. However, that's of no-never-mind now.

In the 3 bar phrases like measures 41 to 43, the last note needs to decay as it would in a concert hall. I'm not sure how to accomplish that, but try a multipoint controller like this:

!NoteWorthyComposerClip(2.0,Single)
|Note|Dur:8th|Pos:#9
|MPC|Controller:reverb|Style:Linear Sweep|TimeRes:Sixteenth|SweepRes:1|Pt1:0,102|Pt2:1,97|Pt3:1,82|Pt4:1,70|Pos:3|Visibility:Never
|Note|Dur:Half,Dotted|Pos:10
!NoteWorthyComposerClip-End

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orchestral order

Go here http://nwc-scriptorium.org/ftp/helpful/scoreorders.txt.

Think of the english horn as sort of a low, sweet oboe. It's a colour instrument, suitable for inner voices. The bassoon has the advantage of being able to play short, clear bass notes that are great as punctuation. Other bass wind instruments such as tuba, bass trombone, bass clarinet, don't speak as clearly or as quickly. I don't think you would normally use the english horn to play a bassoon-like phrase. In any event, before you write a part for a rarer instrument like this, make sure the orchestra you're writing for has someone who plays it. If you expect to sell you arrangement, make sure some other instrument has cues for the rare instrument where it has a solo or other important part.

Check with your orchestra's horn players. I think they tend to specialize in the higher or the lower ranges, due to the nature of the instrument. I think you normally would find 1 and 3 play high, 2 and 4 play low. If I'm right, you might want to change the combination of horns on their two staffs in your score.

This next comment doesn't relate to your piece, it's just general venting. String players may not be familiar with the fingerings used by reed players. There are certain finger combinations that work, and others that are difficult. It also varies from instrument to instrument. Clarinets are in twelfths, and have lots of alternate fingerings; most other reeds are in octaves, and some don't have the extra keys needed for some passages to be played smoothly. I hate playing violin parts transcribed for clarinet, because the orchestrator is not paying attention to the clarinetist's needs. Similarly, the bass clarinet tends to get cello or string bass parts, and what can be a rapid bouncing of a bow on a string for a couple of dozen bars equates to a lot of tonguing and a very long time between breaths.

So to sum up, right now I can't think of any more changes to suggest. You've done some very nice work.

Re: Um...I'm taking a stab in the dark at arranging music for an orchestra...

Reply #8 – 2006-05-11 04:57 pm

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Check with your orchestra's horn players. I think they tend to specialize in the higher or the lower ranges, due to the nature of the instrument. I think you normally would find 1 and 3 play high, 2 and 4 play low. If I'm right, you might want to change the combination of horns on their two staffs in your score.

I'll ask my brother; he plays horn.

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This next comment doesn't relate to your piece, it's just general venting. String players may not be familiar with the fingerings used by reed players. There are certain finger combinations that work, and others that are difficult. It also varies from instrument to instrument. Clarinets are in twelfths, and have lots of alternate fingerings; most other reeds are in octaves, and some don't have the extra keys needed for some passages to be played smoothly. I hate playing violin parts transcribed for clarinet, because the orchestrator is not paying attention to the clarinetist's needs. Similarly, the bass clarinet tends to get cello or string bass parts, and what can be a rapid bouncing of a bow on a string for a couple of dozen bars equates to a lot of tonguing and a very long time between breaths.

Thanks for that insight, there...as a violinist who plays music written for a variety of instruments, I know exactly what you mean. Flute music is within the violin's capable range, but it is very difficult for a violin to read, and a non-virtuoso would have a hard time with a lot of it. I tend to ignore slurs in woodwind music, as my bow is only so long. I am aware that strings find octave jumps and stuff like that quite simple, whereas I have great difficulties playing chromatic scales...weird, huh? Not enough fingers to cover all the notes that fast...of course, if I were a virtuoso, the whole song would probably go crazy because it wouldn't have enough notes for me!
Trumpet music poses a totally different problem to the string player. While it is quite simple, it is difficult to get the proper accentuation on each note...wow, fanfares would be so fun if strings were made to play them! You would be surprised how hard the Wedding March is!

Still thanks

Re: Um...I'm taking a stab in the dark at arranging music for an orchestra...

Reply #9 – 2006-05-11 06:36 pm

I plan to keep the link at the top of this thread updated with the latest version of my song.