Dynamics between two tied long notes

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Dynamics between two tied long notes

2006-01-19 10:31 pm

How I can obtain a diminuendo followed by a crescendo in the middle of two tied whole notes?

Re: Dynamics between two tied long notes

Reply #1 – 2006-01-19 11:30 pm

G'day Mario,
if you have access to the Newsgroup (are you a registered user?) then there has been considerable discussion about this.

However, in short, the only effective way to do this is using volume and velocity overrides for the start and finish dynamics (which may be hidden).

E.G. the default volume on a staff is 127, the default velocity for p is 45, the velocity for ff is 108.

Now, suppose you want you swell to go from p to ff and back.

You need to place the first p with a velocity override of 127 and a volume override of 45. This will give the same level of sound as the default p dynamic.
Now place your cresc.
At the start of the second note in the tied pair place your ff dynamic with a velocity override of 127 and a volume override of 108.
Now place your decresc.
At the end of the second note place another p with a velocity override of 127 and a volume override of 45.
and finally place another (hidden) p with a velocity override of 45 and a volume override of 127. to restore everything.

Another technique exists that uses volume MPC's. it is a little simpler:

Again, you need to place the first p with a velocity override of 127 and a volume override of 45.
Now place your MPC - paramaters are:
Controller = Volume
Style = Linear Sweep
Time Resolution = Whatever you want - say eighth
Sweep Resolution = 1
Initial setting:
-Time offset = 0
-Controller Value = 45
Setting 2 (tick the check box):
-Time offset = say 8 (the middle of 2 tied semibreves)
-Controller Value = 108
Setting 3 (tick the check box):
-Time offset = say 8 (the end of a second tied semibreve)
-Controller Value = 45
and finally place another (hidden) p with a velocity override of 45 and a volume override of 127. to restore everything.

Hope this helps.

Lawrie

Re: Dynamics between two tied long notes

Reply #2 – 2006-01-19 11:38 pm

Oops, Hi Mario,
just reread you original question and realised I got the cresc. dim. reversed.

Sorry 'bout that. The solution is, of course, use the techniques described, but swap the p and ff parts, as well as swapping the controller values in the MPC example.

Lawrie

Re: Dynamics between two tied long notes

Reply #3 – 2006-01-20 04:54 am

I have read Don Muro and other very experienced MIDI sequence composers assert that for dynamic changes it is better to keep the track volume constant, at a little below 127 to avoid clipping, and to use the Expression controller instead for dynamic changes. My experience bears that out. You will get more consistent results on playback with a wide variety of synths if you use Expression instead of Volume for dynamic changes. Expression also takes into account the changes in timbre produced by striking keys or strings harder or softer and blowing harder or softer into a wind instrument, which Volume does not do. You may want to make a template and store it in the Templates folder with several blank staves according to the type of ensembles for which you compose frequently. On each staff, put a Pedal Up to kill any stuck notes from previous songs, MPCs for Expression, Reverb, Stereo Pan, and any others you use often.

You can get very subtle cresc. and decresc. and dim. effects with an MPC for Expression. Be sure to choose Linear Sweep in the Style box and Sweep Resolution of 1 for the smoothest and most natural-sounding effect.

Re: Dynamics between two tied long notes

Reply #4 – 2006-01-20 04:56 am

Another thought on dynamics in NWC files. I would use the NWC dynamic markings strictly as text objects, as they change the track volume when they are active. This negates the advantages of using the Expression controller for all dynamic changes as mentioned in the previous post.

Re: Dynamics between two tied long notes

Reply #5 – 2006-01-20 12:11 pm

Totally agree Milton:-
Another big advantage of using only one Volume CC7 controller for track balance allows any recipient of a MIDI file generated by NWC the ability to quickly balance the dynamics to suit their soundcard.
One and only one Volume controller per track needs to be changed.
All of the commercial MIDI files I have used follow these principles.

Re: Dynamics between two tied long notes

Reply #6 – 2006-01-20 01:15 pm

G'day Milton and Barry,
I hear what you're saying guys, but could you supply examples?

The methods I've tried with Expression MPC's have been less than satisfying...

Lawrie

Re: Dynamics between two tied long notes

Reply #7 – 2006-01-20 03:53 pm

Dynamics do not alter the track volume unless you tell them to! They only affect velocity (i.e. how hard the note is struck)

Diminuendos are easy with expression controllers. First set the dynamic to its appropriate starting value.By default the expression level is set to maximum (127), so just insert an Expression MPC starting at 127 and then a linear sweep over the length of the diminuendo down to the required level. At the end of the note you have to insert another MPC at 127 (and absolute) to restore the expression level. At that point you would normally insert the appropriate dynamic too.

Crescendos are slightly different. The expression level has to start at the lower level, but the velocity must be set to the higher level (so the timbre might not be right in this case) by overriding the velocity level of the dynamic. Then insert a linear sweep MPC starting at the lower level and finishing at 127. Put the correct finishing dynamic at the end of the note, but in this case there is no need to reset the expression level since the MPC has already done that.

But I've always maintained (pace one very keen advocate otherwise) that mucking about with Volume was intrinsically incorrect but it's actually slightly easier to use Volume MPCs. It's a pity that you can't override expression in a dynamic in the same way as volume: then we could have the best of both worlds.

Re: Dynamics between two tied long notes

Reply #8 – 2006-01-21 01:29 pm

G'day. Thanks a lot to everybody for your kind replies.

Re: Dynamics between two tied long notes

Reply #9 – 2006-01-22 10:57 am

I have found this particular forum thread very interesting and it has certainly thrown up some tests and experiments that I want to try. I realise that the original topic is essentially answered, but I did want to make a broader point about the mpc control and related matters.

For those of us who are less experienced at using nwc, the trouble with the mpc control is that it is a little daunting. I mean, I get the mechanics of it – the dialogue is perfectly intuitive. But when you run down that list of possible controllers, there are quite a few of them that I have no idea what they are for, and others that, if I have a vague idea of what they are about, I still don’t understand how to use them, or in what kind of circumstance you might want to use them.

For example, I have noticed that at the start of each staff of the sequencing of the third movement of the Beethoven Piano Sonata that is supplied as a sample file with nwc, the sequencer has placed an mpc reverb control. Now I know that without reverb you get a flatter sound. But I wonder if it is just as simple as that. Is it just as simple as, ‘for realistic effect place a reverb control at the start of each sounding staff, and the amount of reverb is purely a matter of personal taste, like salt and pepper’. I have the feeling that it is a good deal more complex than that and that you actually can achieve far more interesting effects – and not just special effects but far more mainstream effects that people might want to employ more regularly.

Now I understand that the experts that serve this forum are not in the employ of Noteworthy. They are just that, expert users who give of their time generously. I understand how this forum works. It is a kind of game of Dungeons and Dragons where those of us asking the questions have to work out what the right questions to ask are to draw the real gems from the experts. But I guess I am just throwing into the ether my opinion that, first up the manual and help files on the mpc control are inadequate, but more that the mpc control in particular, and more generally other key techniques of sequencing cry out for something of a more tutorial nature. I am the type that likes to experiment. Sometimes I need a nudge in the direction of which experiments I should be conducting.

Re: Dynamics between two tied long notes

Reply #10 – 2006-01-22 11:09 am

It is indeed a very interesting forum. It's a bit like the DB2 forum (which works with shielded mail addresses, but the idea is the same) where I benefit from questions others pose, and the expert answers by others, and sometimes I can supply answers. Or give *wrong* answers, only to be immediately corrected - and learning from the experience. It has happened to me in the Noteworthy forum as well.
Maybe I suffer from forum addiction - ah well, it's good for my English, and good for my musical knowledge. And sometimes I can help others, other times it's a lot of fun.

MPC's? They are indeed difficult to learn. Putting a diminuendo or a rallantando in: hey, no problem. But there is a lot more, and I do not understand much of it. I hope others will spread a little knowledge and light.

Re: Dynamics between two tied long notes

Reply #11 – 2006-01-22 09:01 pm

MPCs are a neat way that NoteWorthy has given us to control the MIDI Continuous Controllers (CCs). As their names suggest, they control different performance parameters in the playback of a MIDI sequence and can turn the mechanical playback of Note Ons and Note Offs into an expressive, musical performance. A Google search on "MIDI tutorial" can turn up a number of excellent ones.

The most commonly used ones are Tempo, Reverb, Stereo Pan, Expression, Volume, Chorus. The first 3 on that list are pretty much self-explanatory. Reverb simulates the natural reverberation of a room (unless your room is lined with foam rubber!) Stereo Pan places the sound somewhere from left to right in the stereo image. It is very useful for giving a natural feel for the spatial separation from each other of performers in an ensemble. It also can be used to pan piano treble clef slightly right and bass clef slightly left to simulate the distribution of those strings across the piano soundboard. I played Sankey's MIDI files from the link in the thread elsewhere in this forum on Just Intonation. His files place each letter name on a separate MIDI channel so that a pitch bend may be applied to change the intonation from equal temperment to just intonation. The pan works particularly well for these. I used the mixer in the Yamaha SoftSynth to pan notes from left to center to right according to where they fall in pitch and it gives an added depth and realism to the sound. Chorus and Phaser simulate effects that were first obtained in recording studios by playing the same recorded passage on two tapes simultaneously. One tape played back at a constant speed and the other was sped up and slowed down slightly, creating phase cancellations (Phaser) and a swooshy sound. Chorus is produced by a very narrow range of pitch variations played against unaltered note. It produces a nice thickening of the sound appropriate for some situations when not over used. Modulation does whatever the modulation wheel on a synth does, most often speeding up or slowing down the vibrato on an instrument. What effect the modulation has depends on the instrument being used. Tempo can be used for rallentando and other tempo changes and rubato sections.

Re: Dynamics between two tied long notes

Reply #12 – 2006-01-23 03:24 pm

Cheers Milton,

the point I had missed was that those controllers were nothing unique to Noteworthy and that the mpc control is just Noteworthy's method of providing access to them. I have followed your suggestion of putting MIDI tutorials into Google and seen the list you are talking about. So far I have only glanced over them, but you are dead right. There is enough there to keep me quiet for some time...