bass clef troubles

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bass clef troubles

2005-07-18 05:51 pm

Recently, I have been working on putting a score on NWC. I want the score on NWC to sound exactly like it would sound on an insturment in terms of pitch ,so I have written all the parts in c. However, I dont know what to do on Bass clef. How would I transpose (if needed) the trombone and tuba parts that are written in bass clef to sound exactly like the part on the music. Any help would be apreciated.

Re: bass clef troubles

Reply #1 – 2005-07-18 05:54 pm

Trombone and Tuba are non-transposing instruments writen in C.

Re: bass clef troubles

Reply #2 – 2005-07-18 06:01 pm

Hi Christian,

I sometimes find SATB-scores that are written in C for SAT, and bass clef for the bass (ouaip).
When I want to layer S+A, that's easy; for T+B, I have to move everything up. I select the whole staff, press Ctrl-Shift Up 5 times (or down twice, if the original had an octave shift down) . That's it: 5 times up or twice down. Or 8 semitones up / 4 down, but I prefer thinking in the C-scale.

Re: bass clef troubles

Reply #3 – 2005-07-18 06:04 pm

Oh my goodness, what did I say now. They are non transposing instruments? Well, let's transpose them anyway. I fear more illustrious Noteworthians will add their say. That should be a few time 2 cents worth. It's bated breath time.

Re: bass clef troubles

Reply #4 – 2005-07-18 06:20 pm

So would that mean that if I want write in the trombone or tuba part it would be put in NWC like it is written in the music and it would sound like the actual music would? and it seems to have a different key signature than the other c insturments in the score, does that matter?

Re: bass clef troubles

Reply #5 – 2005-07-18 07:24 pm

OK Rob, unbait your breath.

Tuba and trombone are not transposing instruments ... unless they are playing in a brass band and then the trombone parts are still not transposed sometimes. If they are transposed then they all use treble clef and the trombones sound a ninth lower than written (written middle C sounds Bb second line on the bass clef). The transposition for tuba depends on the variety of tuba. There are two in common use Eb and BBb. The Eb tuba sounds a 12th lower than written (written middle C sounds Eb one ledger line below the bass clef) and BBb tuba sounds a 17th lower (written middle C sounds Bb under the second ledger line beneath the bass clef).

Key signatures in the written parts are two flats less (or equivalent) than for instruments in C for the Bb transpositions (tromobone and BBb tuba) and three flats less for the Eb transposition.

Does this help?

Stephen

Re: bass clef troubles

Reply #6 – 2005-07-19 10:29 pm

Stephen Randall has it right, apart from a couple of small corrections. Eb tuba sounds a major 13th lower than written (21 semitones). BBb tuba sounds a major 16th lower than written (26 semitones).

In Australian brass bands, the tubas are called Basses - Eb bass and "double Bb bass". The BBb bass players will often abbreviate to "double B", which is also a term used for articulated [abbr=lorries in British - here Australia sides with American!]trucks[/abbr].

In the trombone section the bass trombone plays in concert pitch in bass clef. It's the only concert pitch instrument apart from tuned percussion, and the only bass clef instrument apart from kettle drums and sometimes drum/drum-kit). The other trombones are written in Bb, sounding a major 9th lower (14 semitones), as are the [abbr=narrow bore tenor saxhorns in some countries - not to be confused with Eb tenor horns, which are really Eb alto saxhorns]baritones[/abbr] and euphoniums. This is the same transposition as bass clarinet and tenor sax.

With current writing for orchestras and concert bands, trombones and tubas never transpose, regardless of the key of the instrument. The player learns the appropriate slide position/fingerings. Trombone players will change to tenor clef, and sometimes - in orchestras - alto clef. It's even possible that an avant garde composer might write in treble clef.

There is a cheat for trombone players - if they can read Bb treble clef, the notes are in the same positions as concert pitch tenor clef. Eb basses in treble clef also have their notes in the same position as concert pitch bass clef. The last of these cheats lets you play a viola part on Bb Clarinet, so long as you read it in bass clef, an octave out.

Re: bass clef troubles

Reply #7 – 2005-07-20 05:25 pm

Oops, yes 13th and 16th!

I ran out of fingers - should have taken my shoes and socks off!

Re: bass clef troubles

Reply #8 – 2005-07-21 01:38 am

Ewan - There's always an exception.
I worked for a trombone playing band leader/arranger who always wrote his own lead part in treble clef.

Re: bass clef troubles

Reply #9 – 2005-07-21 11:19 pm

Yes, but I suspect you're the exception to a lot of rules! That's what makes musicians interesting.

I'm guessing you wrote your own parts in concert pitch rather than Bb? I admit I've sometimes written bassoon parts in treble clef, but only when it's just for me to play.

Re: bass clef troubles

Reply #10 – 2005-07-21 11:52 pm

G'day Barry,
...who always wrote his own lead part in treble clef - probably hated trying to keep up with all the ledger lines. I know that's my biggest problem with bass clef

(I've read treble for over 30 years, old habits die _very_ hard)

Lawrie

Re: bass clef troubles

Reply #11 – 2005-07-22 02:52 am

"probably hated trying to keep up with all the ledger lines."

That is why.
But this guy was a very talented musician.
He could play comfortably up to concert F on lead trom (top line concert treble clef - six ledger lines bass clef) so ledger lines became a real problem when copying into bass clef by hand.

He was also a great arranger - and fast - I've seen him score and copy about 40 bars of shots, fanfares and play-ons for big band in less than 2 hours (while we were having a chat prior to the recording session)!

Re: bass clef troubles

Reply #12 – 2005-07-22 03:29 am

Hi Barry,
wow, concert F - comfortably!

Thats about a 5th higher than me on a good day - Although, if he was in the upper reaches most of the time he was probably using a smaller, shallower mouthpiece and a smaller bore horn than I do. Still, that's pretty high to be comfortable! I'm impressed.

I'd love to be able to arrange like that too - maybe I'll just crawl under a rock somewhere and sulk

Lawrie

Re: bass clef troubles

Reply #13 – 2005-07-23 04:51 pm

Lawrie: Happy to see you on Center Stage.

Re: bass clef troubles

Reply #14 – 2005-08-06 09:47 pm

Hi Robert,
Thankyou for your kind words.

Sorry it took me a while to reply, just got back from 2 whole weeks holiday in the snow - I've got aches on my aches and a smile on my face!

Lawrie

Re: bass clef troubles

Reply #15 – 2005-08-08 12:24 pm

Actually, even though tuba and trombone are normally pitched in a different key, the music for them is still written in "C", non-transposing.

The different pitches refer to which notes sound on the open instrument (no valves or in 1st slide position) but do not effect the music the player reads. If the player sees a C on the first ledger line above the bass clef, they will sound a middle "C". Hope that helps. I know it can be confusing. I was a low brass major at one point.

Re: bass clef troubles

Reply #16 – 2005-09-14 01:18 pm

OK, here's a bass clef problem. I am scoring for a band with a tenor saxophone and trombone front line. I don't read bass clef too well, so I tend to write out the horn parts in (concert) treble clef. I then cut and paste into a new document once for the tenor and again for the trombone. For tenor to transpose (a Bb instrument) is simple. But to take a treble clef part and turn it into a bass clef part is fiddly. I transpose the part down 3 semitone, then change the treble clef to bass clef and then delete the transposed key signature and replace the original one. Then I have to close the score and re-open, so that the original settings are 'forgotten'. Is there a simpler way of doing this?

Re: bass clef troubles

Reply #17 – 2005-09-14 01:37 pm

Hi Steve,
I'm not sure what you're doing with playback transpositions, but from your original concert pitch score, if you highlight the entire trombone staff (staves) then <Ctrl-Shift-DownArrow> twice you will put the notes in the right places to allow you to change the clef from treble to bass.

Now before the purists jump on me. The notes will sound an octave lower than they used to because of the bass clef, so this is not exactly correct.

However, a C will still be a C, just an octave lower. If you wrote your treble clef score to sound correctly without using a "staff playback transposition" then you will need to move everything back up 7 times. If you did use a "staff playback transposition" then you now need to remove it.

Even though the trombone is pitched exactly the same as a tenor sax, it is considered a "non transposing" instrument. This simply means that usually, scores written for trombone are written in concert pitch and not transposed as they are for trumpet or sax which are both considered "transposing" instruments.

You don't need to do any transpositions from concert pitch, so the excercise you have been doing by transposing down 3 semitones and restoring the key signature is unnecessary.

Hopefully I haven't muddied the waters.

Lawrie

Re: bass clef troubles

Reply #18 – 2005-09-14 03:36 pm

Lawrie's method leaves you out the octave as he mentioned. The Help information says (or used to say) highlight the notes and shift them up 12 strokes of the up arrow. Then change the clef. It's as easy as Lawrie's method, but puts you in the right space on the clef, instead of an octave too low.

Re: bass clef troubles

Reply #19 – 2005-09-14 10:21 pm

Hi David,
now I am going to muddy the waters a bit...

As a trombonist, when I see a "C" on the 3 space in a treble clef in a transposed staff, I play a 3rd partial C (that is I blow a 3rd patial while the slide is in 1st position) - which just happens to be concert Bb below middle C.

If the staff is at concert pitch but still treble then I need to play a 4th partial D (blow a 4th partial with the slide in 3rd position). This just happens to be concert middle C

Both these notes are technically sounding an octave lower than written. This is a normal practice.

When playing from bass clef on the other hand if I see a concert C on the 2nd space I play a 2nd partial D (that is I blow a second partial with the slide in 6th position). This is correctly pitched according to the the clef... Bass clef trombone parts are always written at concert pitch.

In order to play the 3rd partial C I played in the transposed treble part 4 paragraphs above the note has to be written as a 1st space above the staff Bb. When I see this note, I play a 3rd partial C.

In order for me to play a concert middle C it is now written on the 1st ledger line above the bass cleff staff and I play a 4th partial D (blow a 4th partial with the slide in 3rd position).

I hope this explanation of staff/clef interpretation from the players perspective clears things up a bit. It's so easy to do and so difficult to explain to a non-trombonist... - even to some trombonists who have never played transposed treble...

Lawrie

Re: bass clef troubles

Reply #20 – 2005-09-16 01:20 pm

David and Lawrie

Thanks a lot, both of you. I think you have told me what I needed to know. I will try it out this weekend. I know some trombonists will read transposed Bb flat parts (like the tenor), but that would make life too simple wouldn't it? thanks for your help.

Re: bass clef troubles

Reply #21 – 2005-09-16 03:35 pm

I have to confess Lawrie's use of the expression "partials" is beyond my knowledge. I'm not a trombonist. Perhaps to summarize my part of the explanation, without contradicting Lawrie's:

To convert a treble clef part written for tenor sax to a bass clef part written for a non-tranposing instrument:

1. Convert the tenor sax part to concert pitch on the treble clef. The tenor sax part is written one octave plus one tone above the true sound. A fourth line D for tenor sax is actually a middle C in concert pitch. To do this step, make sure the key signature is visible, then use Alt-Tools/Transpose/ -12 and again, Alt-Tools/Transpose/ -2.

2. Convert this concert pitch part to bass clef. Change the clef sign, then highlight all the notes, move them up 12 half-tones, using the up arrow. The middle C will now appear one leger line above the new clef.

This now leaves you with the same pitches that you started with, notated in concert pitch in the bass clef.

This does not take into account the pecularities of a trombone. Since I don't play the instrument, I can neither agree or disagree with Lawrie's additional considerations.

Good luck.

Re: bass clef troubles

Reply #22 – 2005-09-16 05:09 pm

Hi David,
that works for me. Only one caveat! If the staff has a no playback transposition then "Update staff play back transposition" MUST be left unchecked during step 1. If the staff DOES have a playback transposition then it must be checked. The only purpose of this is of course to achieve correct playback pitch once the job is finished.

The Tenor Sax and the Tenor Trombone are pitched in the same register.

Now, to try to explain "partial"...

The fundamental note of the tenor trombone is a Bb 2 octaves below the Bb immediately below middle C. This note is considered a "pedal" note. It can take quite a good embouchure to achieve this note reliably. The next Bb above is normally considered the bottom note of the instrument (1 octave below middle C). It is also the 2nd "partial" which means that my previous post had some errors in the numbering of the partials - mea culpa - please add 1 to each of the partial numbers mentioned in that post.

Now, I'm sure you are familiar enough with brass theory to know that the pitch of the notes produced are a result of a combination of air velocity and lip tension (ignoring slide position or valve depressions and instrument length for the moment).

So the lowest "open" (no valves or slide in 1st position) note is a concert Bb and is the first partial. The next note is an octave above this - the next Bb and is the second "partial". The next note is an F - the 3rd partial, next comes the next Bb - 4th partial (the Bb below middle C if we are talking about a tenor trombone), then D - 5th partial, F again - 6th partial, a somewhat flat A - 7th partial (not commonly used except by trombones who can adjust tuning with the slide) then Bb - 8th partial and on up the scale.

You will note the partials get closer and closer in pitch. For the mathematically inclined or perhaps physics afficionados you will notice that I have roughly described a harmonic series. The partials are simply overtones of the fundamental.

I.E. the fundamental is the 1st harmonic, the next octave is the 2nd harmonic, then up a 5th to the 3rd harmonic, up a 4th to the 4th harmonic etc...

When we add control of the length of the tubing of the instrument we can add the rest of the notes.

On a valved instrument like a trumpet, the 1st valve adds sufficient tubing to lower the note a tone, the second valve adds a semitone and the 3rd valve adds 3 semitones. By combining valves we can achieve a full chromatic scale.

Similarly on the trombone, each position is a semitone apart. Thus, 1st position - slide closed, 2nd position lowers a semitone, 3rd position lowers another semitone, or 2 semitones in total, and so on out to 7th position which is 6 semitones lower than 1st position.

And just to add confusion, each position is a little further away than the previous one. E.G. 2nd position is about 3" from 1st position, 3rd is about 3 1/4" from 2nd, 4th is about 3 3/4" from 3rd etc. but of course none of this is exact as none of the partials are exacly in tune either...

Please note that the notes mentioned above only apply to Bb instruments. E.G. Tenor Trombone, Bb Trumpet, BBb Tuba, Euphonium (Tenor Tuba), [abbr=I'm not going to go into the confusions inherent in the naming of this instrument]Baritone[/abbr], Flugel Horn, Bb Cornet etc.

The descriptions of the overtone series are correct, only the notes change when we start to talk about Alto Trombones or Eb Cornets or Eb Tenor Horns etc...

Hope this hasn't confused anyone too much,
Lawrie

Re: bass clef troubles

Reply #23 – 2005-09-16 08:59 pm

No, I'm confused just the right amount.

Re: bass clef troubles

Reply #24 – 2005-09-17 12:32 am

No, I'm confused just the right amount.

Then my work is done

Re: bass clef troubles

Reply #25 – 2005-09-17 12:58 am

Umm, correction time - it was late OK?

In the 3rd paragraph of the "partial explanation" - ...- 6th partial, a somewhat flat A -... should have been ... - 6th partial, a somewhat flat G# - ...

Sorry 'bout that folks.

Lawrie

Re: bass clef troubles

Reply #26 – 2005-09-17 03:29 am

Thanks Lawrie. The word "partial" was what I was totally unfamiliar with. The overtones/harmonics I was somewhat familiar with (understanding the concept if not the detail).

I think the only time I've heard "partial" before was in relation to organ stops. Is it used universally in brass instruments, or is it primarily an expression in only certain parts of the world?

Re: bass clef troubles

Reply #27 – 2005-09-17 03:38 am

Hi David,
Is it used universally in brass instruments, or is it primarily an expression in only certain parts of the world?

I couldn't tell you. When I was younger I didn't have a name for it. In the last few years when I have actually been doing research to try and understand some of the physics of what I do is when I first came across the term "partial".

I was introduced to the concept (which I understood as harmonics though I'd never actually made the connection) through doing some reading on the Online Trombone Journal website and forum. I've since seen it elsewhere so it probably isn't simply a localised term but I can't be absolutely sure.

Anyhow, it works for me.

Lawrie