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Topic: Tied notes and accidentals (Read 3641 times) previous topic - next topic

Tied notes and accidentals

NWC2 seems to handle tied accidentals differently from NWC1. Message https://forum.noteworthycomposer.com/?topic=4674 had some interesting theory of accidentals. Now in this case I'm not concerned with anything as complex as accidentals of tied chords having unison notes, but of accidentals of single tied notes only. In the aforementioned message, Kevin O'Brien wrote:

"Accidentals affect only the note they are attached to and for any other occurence of the same note from that point onwards for that bar. They cease at the next bar line unless the note is tied, when it ceases similarly at the next bar line. For the immediately following bar a courtesy reminder accidental, showing the intended note from the key signature may be inserted, but is not obligatory. A courtesy accidental should only be inserted if the note occurs on the same line or space on the same stave." (emphasis mine)

Now, compare this:

Code: [Select · Download]
!NoteWorthyComposerClip(2.0,Single)
|Clef|Type:Treble
|TimeSig|Signature:4/4
|Note|Dur:Half|Pos:#-2
|Note|Dur:Half|Pos:-2
|Bar
|Note|Dur:Whole|Pos:#-2^
|Bar
|Note|Dur:Half|Pos:#-2
|Note|Dur:4th|Pos:-2
|Note|Dur:4th|Pos:-2
!NoteWorthyComposerClip-End
to this:

Code: [Select · Download]
!NoteWorthyComposerClip(2.0,Single)
|Clef|Type:Treble
|TimeSig|Signature:4/4
|Note|Dur:Half|Pos:#-2
|Note|Dur:Half|Pos:-2
|Bar
|Note|Dur:Whole|Pos:#-2
|Bar
|Note|Dur:Half|Pos:#-2
|Note|Dur:4th|Pos:-2
|Note|Dur:4th|Pos:-2
!NoteWorthyComposerClip-End
In NWC2, the last note of the first clip sounds as G natural. But the last note of the second clip sounds as G#. In NWC1 the last note of both sounds as G#.

In NWC1, Audit Accidentals doesn't change either clip.
In NWC2, Audit Accidentals inserts a Natural Accidental for the last note of clip one. This as such is in line with how it plays it.

But consider what happens, if you tie the third note of the 2nd clip to the fourth one. The two last notes are not played as a G# anymore. So should I just insert a sharp accidental for the second last note manually?

Now my interpretation of Kevin's text is that NWC1 is correct, i.e. the accidental of the tied note should apply to the last two notes also. I often play along NWC files using the Play function and have always thought that the grey sharp shown in the last bar by both NWC1 & NWC2 is a kind of 'courtesy reminder accidental' mentioned by Kevin, although it doesn't get printed.

Or then it has to do just with NWC's internals, but actually the problem is not whether there is this grey reminder or not, but rather, how to interpret the accidental of the tie in the first place. Use of a reminder may be justified for both interpretations since in both cases one is reminded that the tied note is sharp. So the problem is, should I be reminded of that the following G's in the same bar are thus also sharp, or rather that only that tied note was :-)

Now if this was changed intentionally, it seems that NWC2 will play a lot of NWC1 files quite differently, since they tend to rely on those grey reminders rather than having explicit accidentals for the first non-tied notes.

Btw, the user tool function is great. Actually, it's why I'm asking, I'm coding a script for stripping notes from chords but don't know how should I handle notes that come after tied notes.

Re: Tied notes and accidentals

Reply #1 –
Hi Joel,
what you are seeing is new in NWC2p1j.

Eric has apparently done quite a bit of work to change NWC functionality to more closely match "correct usage" in precisely this area and has had some unexpected results...

The issue is discussed on the NG.  We are expecting an update fairly soon...

Lawrie

Re: Tied notes and accidentals

Reply #2 –
Thanks for the info. I checked the newsgroup now and found out there's a new version of adp's Parts tool in the NWC2 Scriptorium which pretty much does what I wanted to script anyway. The one that came with NWC2 didn't seem to do anything to my files but the new one seems to work much better.

Re: Tied notes and accidentals

Reply #3 –
Now my interpretation of Kevin's text is that NWC1 is correct, i.e. the accidental of the tied note should apply to the last two notes also.

The authorities are unequivocal. The first untied note in the bar requires an accidental, otherwise is it played according to the key signature. NWC 1 and 2 both handled this incorrectly until release 2j.

In truth it would be good practise to put a courtesy accidental on the untied note in any case. But NWC2 now handles things correctly.

Re: Tied notes and accidentals

Reply #4 –
Peter is right. I tried to state what what was in the ABRSM guide and might not have put it exactly.

Here is what the guide states. This is the English authority.

Code: [Select · Download]
!NoteWorthyComposerClip(2.0,Single)
|Clef|Type:Treble
|Key|Signature:F#
|TimeSig|Signature:3/4
|Text|Text:"Once an accidental has appeared in a bar, it remains"|Font:PageSmallText|Pos:17
|Text|Text:"in force until the end of the bar, hence-"|Font:PageSmallText|Pos:11
|Text|Text:"p13, AB Guide to Music Theory"|Font:PageSmallText|Pos:-9
|Note|Dur:4th|Pos:5
|Note|Dur:8th|Pos:-2|Opts:Stem=Up,Beam=First
|Note|Dur:8th|Pos:-1|Opts:Stem=Up,Beam=End
|Note|Dur:8th|Pos:0|Opts:Stem=Down,Beam=First
|Note|Dur:8th|Pos:1|Opts:Stem=Down,Beam=End
|Bar
|Note|Dur:16th|Pos:2|Opts:Stem=Down,Beam=First
|Note|Dur:16th|Pos:#1|Opts:Stem=Down,Beam
|Note|Dur:16th|Pos:2|Opts:Stem=Down,Beam
|Note|Dur:16th|Pos:1|Opts:Stem=Down,Beam=End
|Note|Dur:4th|Pos:2
|Note|Dur:8th|Pos:3|Opts:Stem=Down,Beam=First
|Note|Dur:8th|Pos:1|Opts:Stem=Down,Beam=End
|Bar
|Note|Dur:4th|Pos:2
|Bar|Style:Double
|Clef|Type:Treble
|Key|Signature:F#
|TimeSig|Signature:3/4
|Note|Dur:4th|Pos:5
|Note|Dur:8th|Pos:-2|Opts:Stem=Up,Beam=First
|Note|Dur:8th|Pos:-1|Opts:Stem=Up,Beam=End
|Note|Dur:8th|Pos:0|Opts:Stem=Down,Beam=First
|Note|Dur:8th|Pos:1|Opts:Stem=Down,Beam=End
|Bar
|Note|Dur:16th|Pos:2|Opts:Stem=Down,Beam=First
|Text|Text:"NOT"|Font:PageText|Pos:10
|Note|Dur:16th|Pos:#1|Opts:Stem=Down,Beam
|Note|Dur:16th|Pos:2|Opts:Stem=Down,Beam
|Note|Dur:16th|Pos:#1|Opts:Stem=Down,Beam=End
|Note|Dur:4th|Pos:2
|Note|Dur:8th|Pos:3|Opts:Stem=Down,Beam=First
|Note|Dur:8th|Pos:#1|Opts:Stem=Down,Beam=End
|Bar
|Note|Dur:4th|Pos:2
|Bar|Style:Double
|Text|Text:"over a bar-line , the accidental is not written again-"|Font:PageSmallText|Pos:13
|Text|Text:"If a note with an accidental is tied"|Font:PageSmallText|Pos:17
|Clef|Type:Treble
|Note|Dur:4th,Slur|Pos:#-3
|Bar
|Note|Dur:4th|Pos:-3
|Bar|Style:Double
|Clef|Type:Treble
|Note|Dur:4th|Pos:#-3^
|Bar
|Note|Dur:4th|Pos:#-3
|Bar|Style:Double
|Text|Text:"But if it were to be used again in the second bar,"|Font:PageSmallText|Pos:17
|Text|Text:"its next appearnce would have to be marked -"|Font:PageSmallText|Pos:11
|Clef|Type:Treble
|TimeSig|Signature:4/4
|Note|Dur:4th|Pos:1
|Note|Dur:4th|Pos:-4
|Note|Dur:4th|Pos:-3
|Note|Dur:4th,Slur|Pos:#-3
|Bar
|Note|Dur:4th|Pos:-3
|Note|Dur:4th|Pos:-1
|Note|Dur:4th|Pos:-2
|Note|Dur:4th|Pos:#-3
|Bar
|Note|Dur:Half|Pos:-2
|Note|Dur:Half|Pos:-5
|Bar
|Note|Dur:Whole|Pos:-4
!NoteWorthyComposerClip-End