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Topic: Cnage from Treble to Bass staff (Read 16380 times) previous topic - next topic

Cnage from Treble to Bass staff

What is the easiest way to change a line of music written in the Trable clef to the same music in the Bass clef?
I know it should be easy but at present it is not easy for me!

Tony

Re: Cnage from Treble to Bass staff

Reply #1 –
Here are two possible answers depending on what you are actually trying to achieve.

1.  Assuming that you only want to change from treble to bass clef - no change in pitch or transposition then do this:

a) select the notes to be moved.

b) hold down cntrl and shift and press up-arrow 12 times.

c) insert a bass clef before the notes that you have moved (and a treble clef after them if you have a section that you didn't move)

OR...

2.  If you have a piece written in treble clef for a transposing lower brass instrument such as a Bb baritone or Eb bass and you want to change it to be written at concert pitch in bass clef then things are a bit more complicated.  First you need to decide what is the appropriate transposition.

Here are some examples:

Bb Baritone - transpose down 14 semitones

Eb bass - transpose down 19 semitones

BBb bass - transpose down 26 semitones

For other instruments find out what actual pitch a written middle C sounds then count the semitones between that and middle C.

Now do this:

d)  Ensure there is a key signature on the staff to be changed - even if there are no flats or sharps in the key signature enter a C Major signature.  Use [Insert] [Key signature].

e)  Transpose the staff the correct interval as listed above.  Use [Tools] [Transpose Staff] leaving [update staff playback transposition] unchecked.  To tranpose more than 12 semitones you will need to use this more than once e.g. to transpose down 26 semitones first transpose down 12, then down 12 again and then down 2.

This has now got your notes written at the actual pitch they should sound but still in treble clef and probably using a bewildering number of ledger lines.  So you need to go through steps a), b) and c) above to move them to bass clef.

HTH

Stephen

Re: Cnage from Treble to Bass staff

Reply #2 –
Stephen,

I should have been a little more explicit. The line of music in question is a voice part for Tenor written on a Treble (octave lower) staff,  which I want to copy as the same voice but as the upper part of a conventional Bass staff for Tenor and Bass voices.  Changing the Clef sign does not of course alter the position of the notes on the Staff and when I transposed by what I assumed was the right number of semitones, the part seems not to be in tune in places. The music is in D minor.

Tony
 

Re: Cnage from Treble to Bass staff

Reply #3 –
There's no need to transpose anything. Just change the clef to a bass clef, select all the notes, and then move them all up five staff positions with Shift/Control/Up Arrow.

Essentially you are moving a C written on the treble clef to a middle C above the bass clef etc.

Re: Cnage from Treble to Bass staff

Reply #4 –
Stephen, Peter,
Thank you for your help!

Tony

Re: Cnage from Treble to Bass staff

Reply #5 –
What are the chances of getting automatic transposition for instruments?  I play trombone in a brass band, and most of our music is in treble clef Bb (i.e written 14 semitones higher than it sounds).  When we play music written for concert bands, the troms are in bass clef C.  A quick one or two touch transposition tool would be a bargain.

Re: Cnage from Treble to Bass staff

Reply #6 –
TO CHANGE FROM TREBLE CLEF TO BASS CLEF CHANGE THE TREBLE CLEF SYMBOL TO BASS CLEF SYMBOL HIGHLIGHT THE DESIRED NOTES AND USING THE CTRL SHIFT MOVE THE HIGHLIGHTED NOTES DOWN 2 STEPS THIS WILL GIVE YOU THE SAME MELODY IN THE BASS CLEF TO CHANGE TO ALTO CLEF DO THE SAME BUT DROP THE NOTES ONLY  1 STEP

Re: Cnage from Treble to Bass staff

Reply #7 –
Rikbel, when you CHANGE FROM TREBLE CLEF TO BASS CLEF by HIGHLIGHTing AND USING THE CTRL SHIFT MOVE THE HIGHLIGHTED NOTES DOWN 2 STEPS, doesn't that put you an octave too low?

I don't know what the current help menu suggests, but the old one (for version 1.xx) suggested 12, not 2, I think.

Re: Cnage from Treble to Bass staff

Reply #8 –
DAVE I GUESS YOU ARE CORRECT DEPENDING ON THE INSTRUMENT.CHANGING OCTAVES WOULD REQUIRE 7 MORE UP OR DOWN "CLICKS"

Re: Cnage from Treble to Bass staff

Reply #9 –
Just so any subsequent reader won't get confused between what Rikbel and I are saying:

To change from bass clef to treble clef, change the clef sign to treble, highlight the notes, and press ctrl-shift-down arrow 12 times.

To change from treble clef to bass clef, change the clef sign to bass, highlight the notes, and press ctrl-shift-up arrow 12 steps.

To transpose particular notes an octave without changing clefs, highlight the note, and press the ctrl-shift-up or down arrow just 7 times.  To transpose all the notes in a staff up or down an octave, you can do this too, but it may be easier just to transpose the entire staff up or down 12 semitones using the Tools/Transpose command.

Re: Cnage from Treble to Bass staff

Reply #10 –
One further hint on changing clefs, for others musical illiterates, as I am.

Since the ctl-shift-down snaps the view to the beginning of the staff, I always insert an otherwise extraneous middle C at the beginning, then I have a visual clue, and don't have to count.  Once things are in place I delete the guide note.

Re: Cnage from Treble to Bass staff

Reply #11 –
Rikbel,

A simple hint that your caps lock key is stuck does not help?
Let's put it in plain English. All capitals is ugly and unnecessary. Don't do it.

best regards,
Rob.

Re: Cnage from Treble to Bass staff

Reply #12 –
And when the specific question is how to move Tenor on the Treble Clef to Tenor on the Bass Clef, please don't disagree with the obvious solution.

Re: Cnage from Treble to Bass staff

Reply #13 –
Peter, I'm a little [abbr=but that's not unusual for me]confused[/abbr].  Which was the obvious solution?

Rikbel, the caps lock thing - in this forum, as in e-mail, if a person writes all in upper case, it's perceived as [abbr=It's also harder to read all caps...]shouting[/abbr].

Re: Cnage from Treble to Bass staff

Reply #15 –
As the one who asked the question in the first place I have to say that Peter's answer was absolutely right and solved my problem
Tony

Re: Cnage from Treble to Bass staff

Reply #16 –
...except Peter's obvious solution is wrong.  Test it.  Treble clef bottom line E is the same as E placed two leger lines above the bass clef.  Peter's method converts it to bass clef 3rd space, too low by an octave.

Re: Cnage from Treble to Bass staff

Reply #17 –
Before you give the answer you should always read the question! Tony and I are in unambiguous agreement that I answered the question he asked.

Now it is up to you to work out why it is not an octave too low.

Re: Cnage from Treble to Bass staff

Reply #18 –
Ya got me, Peter?  If your response #3 above relates to notation conventions that are unique to vocal music, that might explain why I'm not understanding you. I'm afraid I am not familiar with peculiarities specific to choral writing, such as perhaps being written an octave above the true sound when notated in treble clef if that is what is usually done.

I did read the question Tony asked.  It was "What is the easiest way to change a line of music written in the Trable clef to the same music in the Bass clef?"

I assume Trable is a typo, and should read Treble.  Otherwise, the question seems pretty straightforward.

To me, "line of music" means a series of notes and "the same music" means that the notes in both the treble and bass clefs will have the same names and will be at the same pitch, not an octave apart.

If Tony's question related to successive middle C's in the treble clef, I would think his question asks for the easiest way to convert them to middle C in the bass clef.  NWC's method (12 steps) does that, your method doesn't.

Have I almost figured it out yet?  If not, please give me the answer.  My old brain is growing tired.

Re: Cnage from Treble to Bass staff

Reply #19 –
The question was clarified in https://forum.noteworthycomposer.com/?topic=4544.msg28413#msg28413 where Tony explicitly states that he is talking about an octave shifted treble clef.

In general Tenors sing from the treble clef (unless sharing a staff with the basses) but the notes sound an octave down. You will often see a little 8 appended to the bottom of the clef sign to signify this. Since the Tenor range is typically A below to A above the treble clef, using it is quite appropriate.

Re: Cnage from Treble to Bass staff

Reply #20 –
Learn something every day.  Many thanks.

Re: Cnage from Treble to Bass staff

Reply #21 –
-
ROMANS MVST HAVE HAD HARD TIME KEEPING QVIET THEN.

Sorry, couldn't resist. :P
_

Re: Cnage from Treble to Bass staff

Reply #22 –
My apologies to everybody involved ! The original treble clef was in fact one with an octave lower symbol below it , so that Peter was right.

Tony

Re: Cnage from Treble to Bass staff

Reply #23 –
I thought I would try a different approach.  For anyone who is still confused about the discussion, try the first ComposerClip below, and press f5 to hear the difference.  For anyone who doesn't fully understand the way that tenors read music written in the treble clef, the second ComposerClip (without audio) might help explain the problems.

For NWC, my original files had lyrics.  I used Edit/SelectAll to get the ComposerClips, but the lyrics were omitted by this process.  Is this intentional?  Or an oversight?  Or am I missing something?  Thanks, this is a great way to communicate about problems.

FIRST example:

Code: [Select · Download]
!NoteWorthyComposerClip(2.0,Single)
|Text|Text:"Normal treble clef"|Font:StaffItalic|Pos:-9
|Clef|Type:Treble
|Key|Signature:C
|TimeSig|Signature:4/4
|Note|Dur:Whole|Pos:1
|Bar|Style:Double
|Clef|Type:Bass
|Text|Text:"Up 5 clicks"|Font:StaffItalic|Pos:-9
|Note|Dur:Whole|Pos:6
|Bar
|Text|Text:"Up 12 clicks"|Font:StaffItalic|Pos:-9
|Note|Dur:Whole|Pos:13
|Bar
|Text|Text:"Down 2 clicks"|Font:StaffItalic|Pos:-9
|Note|Dur:Whole|Pos:-1
|Bar|Style:Double
|Clef|Type:Treble|OctaveShift:Octave Down
|Text|Text:"Shifted clef"|Font:StaffItalic|Pos:-9
|TimeSig|Signature:4/4
|Note|Dur:Whole|Pos:1
|Bar|Style:Double
|Clef|Type:Bass
|Text|Text:"Up 5 clicks"|Font:StaffItalic|Pos:-9
|Note|Dur:Whole|Pos:6
|Bar
|Text|Text:"Up 12 clicks"|Font:StaffItalic|Pos:-9
|Note|Dur:Whole|Pos:13
|Bar
|Text|Text:"Down 2 clicks"|Font:StaffItalic|Pos:-9
|Note|Dur:Whole|Pos:-1
!NoteWorthyComposerClip-End
SECOND example:

Code: [Select · Download]
!NoteWorthyComposerClip(2.0,Single)
|Clef|Type:Bass
|Key|Signature:C
|TimeSig|Signature:4/4
|Text|Text:"These are good notes for a top tenor."|Font:StaffItalic|Pos:-8
|Note|Dur:4th|Pos:6
|Note|Dur:4th|Pos:7
|Note|Dur:4th|Pos:8
|Note|Dur:4th|Pos:9
|Bar
|Note|Dur:4th|Pos:10
|Note|Dur:4th|Pos:9
|Note|Dur:4th|Pos:8
|Note|Dur:4th|Pos:7
|Bar
|Note|Dur:Whole|Pos:6
|Bar|Style:Double
|Text|Text:"It is hard to read both notes above and lyrics below."|Font:StaffItalic|Pos:-14
|Text|Text:"Bass line makes sight-reading miserable."|Font:StaffItalic|Pos:-9
|Chord|Dur:4th|Pos:6|Opts:Stem=Up|Dur2:4th|Pos2:-1
|Chord|Dur:4th|Pos:7|Opts:Stem=Up|Dur2:4th|Pos2:-2
|Chord|Dur:4th|Pos:8|Opts:Stem=Up|Dur2:4th|Pos2:-3
|Chord|Dur:4th|Pos:9|Opts:Stem=Up|Dur2:4th|Pos2:-4
|Bar
|Chord|Dur:4th|Pos:10|Opts:Stem=Up|Dur2:4th|Pos2:-5
|Chord|Dur:4th|Pos:9|Opts:Stem=Up|Dur2:4th|Pos2:-4
|Chord|Dur:4th|Pos:8|Opts:Stem=Up|Dur2:4th|Pos2:-3
|Chord|Dur:4th|Pos:7|Opts:Stem=Up|Dur2:4th|Pos2:-2
|Bar
|Chord|Dur:Whole|Pos:6|Opts:Stem=Up|Dur2:Whole|Pos2:-1
|Bar|Style:Double
|Clef|Type:Treble|OctaveShift:Octave Down
|Text|Text:"Both notes and lyrics are easier to read."|Font:StaffItalic|Pos:-10
|Note|Dur:4th|Pos:1|Opts:Stem=Down
|Note|Dur:4th|Pos:2|Opts:Stem=Down
|Note|Dur:4th|Pos:3|Opts:Stem=Down
|Note|Dur:4th|Pos:4|Opts:Stem=Down
|Bar
|Note|Dur:4th|Pos:5|Opts:Stem=Down
|Note|Dur:4th|Pos:4|Opts:Stem=Down
|Note|Dur:4th|Pos:3|Opts:Stem=Down
|Note|Dur:4th|Pos:2|Opts:Stem=Down
|Bar
|Note|Dur:Whole|Pos:1|Opts:Stem=Down
|Bar|Style:Double
|Clef|Type:Treble
|Text|Text:"Tenors sing as in previous example. "|Font:StaffItalic|Pos:-8
|Text|Text:"MIDI plays octave as written."|Font:StaffItalic|Pos:-13
|Note|Dur:4th|Pos:1|Opts:Stem=Down
|Note|Dur:4th|Pos:2|Opts:Stem=Down
|Note|Dur:4th|Pos:3|Opts:Stem=Down
|Note|Dur:4th|Pos:4|Opts:Stem=Down
|Bar
|Note|Dur:4th|Pos:5|Opts:Stem=Down
|Note|Dur:4th|Pos:4|Opts:Stem=Down
|Note|Dur:4th|Pos:3|Opts:Stem=Down
|Note|Dur:4th|Pos:2|Opts:Stem=Down
|Bar
|Note|Dur:Whole|Pos:1|Opts:Stem=Down
!NoteWorthyComposerClip-End

Re: Cnage from Treble to Bass staff

Reply #24 –
Someone help!

I play baritone B.C. (brass instrument) and I dont have any baritone T.C. music. How do I get to the treble clef?

Re: Cnage from Treble to Bass staff

Reply #25 –
I think bass clef baritone parts are notated in concert pitch and treble clef parts are in Bb.  If I'm right, here's what to do (if I'm wrong, ignore the last (transpose) sentence):

Starting at the baritone b.c. staff, change the clef sign to treble, then highlight everything.  Press the down arrow 12 times.  Check it visually - a b.c. top line A will now show two leger lines below the treble clef.    A b.c. middle C is one leger line above the b.c. but one leger line below the t.c.

OK, now that you've got a part in treble clef in concert pitch, just use Tools/Transpose/+2 to change to the right key for a Bb instrument.

Re: Cnage from Treble to Bass staff

Reply #26 –
Dakota,

I play baritone B.C. [brass instrument] and I dont have any baritone T.C. music. How do I get to the treble clef?

Perhaps I can make it a little clearer.

Baritone BC, like Trombone BC, is normally written at concert pitch.

So, if you play the C on the second space of the BC staff you are using your 1st and 3rd valves and "blowing" a 2nd partial.

To move this to a transposed treble clef staff you need to do several steps.

I think the easiest way is this:
1) Change the clef sign to treble.

2) Highlight the entire staff and move the notes _down_ (<shift><ctrl><dn arrow>) 5 times.  This puts a note from the second space (BC "C") to the first ledger line below the staff (TC "C").  At this point we are still in concert pitch but an octave higher due to the clef change.

3) Unhighlight the notes but keep the staff selected and click Tools, Transpose Staff.  Choose +2 semitones and keep the "update staff playback transposition" box checked.

4) Right click the staff and select staff properties.  In NWC2 go to the instrument tab and change the transposition from -2 to -14 - this will put the playback into the correct octave.  For NWC make the same change from the midi tab.

This will result in a staff written an octave and a tone higher than the original (and than it sounds), as is normal convention for brass bands or any time you see Baritone TC music.

As you will see, the BC "C" that started life on the second space is now on the first space below the TC staff - and you still use your 1st and 3rd valves while "blowing" a 2nd partial.  Only now you would call it a "D".

The same applies for changing (Bb) Trombone BC to Trombone TC.

In the long term, do youself a favour and become proficient in reading both clefs - I'm doing this myself at the moment but I am unable to spend the time at it that I really need so it is taking a while.

Hope this helps.

Lawrie

Re: Cnage from Treble to Bass staff

Reply #27 –
Are all wind instrument players masochists? I suppose there must be some logic behind all this transposition they indulge in, but it got lost several genrations ago!

Tony (who started this with an innocent query! )

Re: Cnage from Treble to Bass staff

Reply #28 –
Hmmm... this has been discussed in quite a few threads. The main thing is this. Take a recorder, the plain little soprano one. Now, make it a little longer, keeping the layout (borings) as it is. With the same fingering, you now get different notes!
The 'solution' is to write music with a different clef. This clef offsets the lengthening of the recorder, so to speak, so both soprano recorder players and alto recorder players can read the same music, and play in harmony.
Repeat the process for tenor recorders, and so on.

You can now imagine how, with different wind instruments of different sizes, you get enormous confusion if you are used to the concert pitch (and the way it is put to paper) and then, some day, you switch to another instrument with different fingering - producing a lower or higher sound! That's where the different clefs came from. It is no masochist that invented it, and no sadist that imposed it - it's plain logic, the kind you find when you follow the track for a while.

Quite interesting (for masochists? ;-) )
Rob.

Re: Cnage from Treble to Bass staff

Reply #29 –
Rob, are you sure clefs were invented for instuments?  If I remember my training, the moveable C clef and moveable F clef developed about 800 years ago, for voices.  They eventually settled into standard positions for each voice and were named as such - soprano, alto, mezzo, tenor (all C clefs), baritone (which could be either C or F clef) and bass (F clef).  The G-clef came along a little later, and was used for treble voices.

The purpose of moveable clefs was not for transposition, but rather to keep the tessitura (the bulk of the vocal range) within one staff.

I think recorder might be a poor example to give to explain transposition, since they're the one woodwind family that doesn't transpose.  For each size instrument you need to learn different fingerings (although for the basic notes, there are only two sets, one each for alternating sizes).

Harry, as for us wind players being masochists and sadists, it's quite possibly true, but not because of transposition.  It makes our life much easier.  When you're sitting in the orchestra pit and have to keep swapping between alto flute, oboe, english horn, soprano sax and alto sax (sure, it's an unlikely combination, but it's good for explaining), it's comforting to know that when you see a G on the music, you put down the same fingers on all five instruments.  If you were to play untransposed, you would need to know a different set of fingerings for each instrument, and you would have to play D, G, C, F and Bb to get the same sounding note.

The flute, all other saxes, half of the recorders and the "top half" of clarinets of all sizes also use the same general fingerings, and the "bottom half" of all clarinets, the other half of the recorders, the bassoon and contrabassoon have a second common set of fingerings.  That covers all the woodwinds you're likely to see in the pit.

Brass tend not to double as much in the pit; they use mutes to get variety of sound instead.  But brass bands is where transposition really helps.  Eb Cornet, Bb Cornet, Bb Flugelhorn, Eb Tenor horn, Bb Baritone, Bb Euphonium, Eb Bass, and BBb Bass all have the same general fingerings.  If the tenor trombones are playing valved instruments, they too have the same fingerings.  If they playing slide instruments, they still play in Bb.  The only concert pitched instruments in a brass band are bass trombone and tuned percussion!

There is more on the advantages of transposing in https://forum.noteworthycomposer.com/?topic=3821.

Re: Cnage from Treble to Bass staff

Reply #30 –
Right... out of my league.
Won't try that again. Sorry guys.