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Topic: Duolet in 6/8 measures (Read 9535 times) previous topic - next topic

Duolet in 6/8 measures

In NWC, we may enter a triplet.
I don't find its opposite, called in French a "duolet"
Am I right ?

Re: Duolet in 6/8 measures

Reply #1 –
 
Arbitrary n-tuplets (n!=3, including duplets) have been a popular wish list item.
 

Re: Duolet in 6/8 measures

Reply #2 –
Seems like I have seen duplets indicated by dotted notes one note less than the original.  I mean like if you have a duplet of quarter notes you would have two dotted eighth notes.
Maybe anyhow.
Hank

Re: Duolet in 6/8 measures

Reply #3 –
The other way around, I think.  As a triplet is three notes in the time for two, a duplet (I think there is another name, but I'm not home to look it up -- by analogy it should be twins, but I know it isn't) is two notes in the time for three.  Thus, in 6/8 time a duplet of 1/8 notes (quavers) fills half the measure and is equivalent (in sound, not representation) of two dotted 1/8 notes.

As with other n-tuplets you can fake it by a hidden sounding staff with the dotted 1/8 notes (or what ever) and a visible, muted, staff with barred 1/8 notes, a text "2" above them, and two invisible 1/16 rests, one after each of the 1/8 notes.

BTW, I've never seen a set of rules indicating how many notes of duration "x" are replaced by an n-tuplet of "x" notes.  For triplets it is two replaced by three, for duplets it is three replaced by two, for pentuplets (pentoles?) it is four replaced by five, but I don't know if there is a fixed rule for others, and I don't see any way to derive it from the examples.  Does a septuplet (heptuplet?) replace six or eight equivalent notes?  I've seen sextuplets (hextuplet?) which is just two triplets barred as one (and in fact NWC will create this, just with the wrong index, a 3 instead of a 6).  In the other cases I always have to count notes in the rest of the measure to figure it out.

Cyril

Re: Duolet in 6/8 measures

Reply #4 –
Hi Cyril, don't you have that backwards?  A triplet is three notes in the time of two, so shouldn't a duplet be two notes in the time for one and a half?  I dunno, it just seem logical to me.  Wouldn't the timing go the same way as a triplet?

Have fun - The Hankster

Re: Duolet in 6/8 measures

Reply #5 –
I'm not home at the moment (in sunny(?) San Diego with my son and daughter-in-law) so I don't have any examples to hand, but I am quite certain that duplets are the inverse of triplets, that is two in the time of three.  If no one else chimes in by the time I get home (next week) I'll search up an example.

Cyril

Re: Duolet in 6/8 measures

Reply #6 –
Hank-
Once again, it depends on which end of the telescope you look into. A duplet is two notes in the time of three. In can be considered the converse of the triplet. However, the length of each dupletted note is 1-1/2 times that of the original.

For instance, in 6/8 time, you'll normally have two sets of three 1/8 notes. "Dupletizing" such a set of three 1/8 notes gives two 1/8 notes, each with a duration of 1-1/2 times that of a "normal" note. It will therefore be exactly equivalent to a dotted 1/8. (Two dotted 1/8's = three normal 1/8's).

Make sense?

Cheers,
Fred

Re: Duolet in 6/8 measures

Reply #7 –
Fred, you have jogged my (very poor) memory.  I saw a tune that had two 1/8 notes with "2" over them and the text part said play them as dotted 8th notes.  As usual you are correct (so is Cyril).  It just seemed logical that if a triplet is three notes in the time of two and a pentuplet is five notes in the time of four that a duplet should be two notes in the time of something less than two.  I should know by now to not try to apply logic to music <G>.

Re: Duolet in 6/8 measures

Reply #8 –
I have also seen two eighth notes with a 2 over them while in something like 6/8 or 9/8 time, but the save effect could be achieved with a pair of dotted eighth notes.  If you really want to go to the trouble as eighth notes with the 2, you can set up a hidden/played - muted/displayed pair of staves.  The played staff would have dotted eighth notes while the muted staff would have your eighth notes followed by hidden 16ths.  That set could be beamed.  The 2 would be inserted as a text comment by hand.

Re: Duolet in 6/8 measures

Reply #9 –
I've recently seen an n-tuplet showing 5 notes in the time of 3 and a half, straddling a bar line.  Bizarre!

Yes, a duplet is equivalent in timing to two of the notes being dotted, but I think there is a slight difference when you play them, a difference in interpretation.  I might be wrong, but two dotted notes will be played with a slight emphasis on the second note, at the least a "breath pulse," but a duplet will be more of a stretching out of the time of the two notes.  While they are noticeably different notes, they are a smoothed distortion of the time rather than an intended syncopation.

I recognize I'm on thin ice here, it's the way I perceive my friends and I interpret the figure, but we've never discussed it.

Re: Duolet in 6/8 measures

Reply #10 –
Cyril wrote:
fake (a duplet) by a hidden sounding staff with the dotted 1/8 notes (or what ever) and a visible, muted, staff with barred 1/8 notes, a text "2" above them, and two invisible 1/16 rests, one after each of the 1/8 notes.

AFAIK, (and I would love it to be otherwise) you can't bar (Ctrl-B) notes and rests, whether visible or not. It does work if you use invisible 1/16 notes within the group.

Bob

Re: Duolet in 6/8 measures

Reply #11 –
If the staff is muted (while played staff is hidden) you can insert any 16th note after the 8th note and hide it.  These notes can be beamed and would look (roughly) like a pair of beamed 8th's.  I say roughly since the note stems will appear a little longer than expected.
Since 1998

Re: Duolet in 6/8 measures

Reply #12 –
Exactly. My point was that it must be a note, and not a rest.

Bob

Re: Duolet in 6/8 measures

Reply #13 –
I can only plead poor memory, and lack of reference, as I'm not home.

You are correct, you need to beam 1/8 1/16 1/8 1/16, then hide the 1/16 notes.  I was conflating the problem at hand and that of displaying beamed notes with rests between them.  A whole 'nother discussion.

Cyril

Re: Duolet in 6/8 measures

Reply #14 –
...you need to beam 1/8 1/16 1/8 1/16, then hide the 1/16 notes.
Better as eighth note, hidden sixteenth note, eighth note, hidden sixteenth rest.  Otherwise, the [abbr=yes, it's a beam, not a bar]beam[/abbr] will extend past the note grouping.

Re: Duolet in 6/8 measures

Reply #15 –
When I beam 1/8 1/16 1/8 and 1/16 and then hide the sixteenths, I still end up with the little lower crossbar visible, and my screen won't support any more Wite-out!

Re: Duolet in 6/8 measures

Reply #16 –
In the latest release (1.75.7), any hidden notes in a beam do not get drawn. In this example, the 16th notes would not appear in the printout, so only the 8th note beam would show up.

Re: Duolet in 6/8 measures

Reply #17 –
I'm afraid that the little 16th note beams do indeed show up. The notes disappear, but their memories linger.

Re: Duolet in 6/8 measures

Reply #18 –
I just took another look at reply 3.  To combine m-lets with n-lets, find the LCM of m and n and assume that many, say 64th notes will be in that beat or measure.  Tie m 64ths in creating one nth note and n 64ths to create one mth note.

For example, if you are in 9/8 and need to play seven notes against nine eighth notes, change (temporarily) the key signature to 63/64 (7 * 9 = 63) and the nine notes can be double dotted eighths.  Each of the seven notes can be dotted eighths tied to dotted 16ths.

Of course it is much easier when the n in n-tuple is a power of 2, but the same stills hold true.  In https://forum.noteworthycomposer.com/?topic=2326, a beat with a pentuplet (5-let) can easily be divided into 5, 10, 20, 40, or 80 parts without as much need for an off-the-wall time signature.  Unlike 7 vs 9, the notes in the pentuplet do not need to be tied or dotted to fill the required fraction of their beats.
Since 1998