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Beat Count

Hi.
I am planning teaching my choir a piece with an irregular rhythm.
It would help if I could print the beat number in each bar to help with the counting!
Does anyone know if this is possible?

Many thanks
Andy

Re: Beat Count

Reply #1 –
Like this?
(layered staff, with stemless notes with blank noteheads; and a lyrics line for the beat numbers, which I put above so that it does not conflict with the lyrics to be sung).

H.M.

Re: Beat Count

Reply #2 –
Quote from: hmmueller –
Like this?
H.M.
Brilliant (except: the added staff should be muted).
I'm considering making a user tool for this.
Always look on the bright side of life!

Re: Beat Count

Reply #3 –
You could call the tool "Metronome" :)  Maybe have an option to use the drum kit and MIDI channel 10 for the staff.

Re: Beat Count

Reply #4 –
Quote from: Mike Shawaluk –
You could call the tool "Metronome" :)  Maybe have an option to use the drum kit and MIDI channel 10 for the staff.
Thanks Mike, great idea!
Always look on the bright side of life!

Re: Beat Count

Reply #5 –
The only problem with using Channel 10 is that it may already be being used in the original piece. I used Taiko Drum, bass clef bottom space (A) transposed -10 for a bass drum beat in Black Bear, a fife and drum piece I put into the Scriptorium in April 2003, when I was just learning NWC. https://nwc-scriptorium.org/db-index.php?by=submitter&t=Bub%2C+William

Re: Beat Count

Reply #6 –
Quote from: fathafluff –
The only problem with using Channel 10 is that it may already be being used in the original piece. <snip>
Shouldn't matter.  I use channel 10 up to around 40 times in any single score, depending on what percussion sounds I need.

This works because typically you only need to assign one "Instrument" to the channel, and each percussion sound is accessed via different "notes" on the percussion staves.

One of the ways this works for me is I can notate a drumkit using standard staff positions for each sound by putting each drum/cymbal/etc. on its own staff, spacing as necessary with rests (which I move off the page using Global_Mod) and layering.  The other thing that's needed for this to work is each staff needs it's own transposition.

There is a lot of work using this method, but you end up having a printable part that both looks correct to the player and sounds correct on playback.
Attached are 2 examples.  One for a drum kit, and the other for a full Concert Band implementation with notation exemplars at the start of each stave/instrument.

All staves use channel 10, all at the same time.

The only real drawback is every instance of a staff using channel 10 will use the volume setting of the last instance encountered by NWC on playback, usually the bottom percussion staff unless there is an Instrument change somewhere that changes the volume setting.  To get around this I generally set all staves to a volume of 127 (the default) and if I need to compensate for differing volume levels I cheat and use "Print|Never" dynamic markings to get my desired result.

<edit> Another technique to consider for concert band (orchestral?) percussion is the use of instrument changes - if you're using a single staff (often single line) for some, or even all, of your percussion, then when there is an instrument change you can use a transposition in the instrument change element to get your preferred note location on the staff for that instrument.  Next instrument change, different transposition. </edit>
I plays 'Bones, crumpets, coronets, floosgals, youfonymums 'n tubies.

Re: Beat Count

Reply #7 –
I have one more question before I can finish the tool: does an anacrusis always have to have an integer number of beats?
If not, it wouldn't be easy to process it correctly.
Always look on the bright side of life!

Re: Beat Count

Reply #8 –
I had to look up "anacrusis" to understand your question. I think you are referring to what I call the "pickup measure".

I think that is a reasonable assumption. However, I also think that it won't be difficult to come up with a score that will mess with your tool. For example, a 4/4 score that temporarily changes to 3/8 time.

Re: Beat Count

Reply #9 –
Quote from: Mike Shawaluk –
... For example, a 4/4 score that temporarily changes to 3/8 time.
With our choir, we have just performed John Leavitt's Missa Festiva. The Credo actually changes between 4/4, 3/4, 5/8 and a few others. I have attached our SSAB score as an example and test score.

And I have added an image that contains a few non-full-beat pickups (anacruses) from J.S.Bach's "Notenbüchlein für Anna Magdalena Bach" from 1725. There are more in there, and I also know of a number in church hymns.

H.M.

Re: Beat Count

Reply #10 –
Quote from: Opagust –
I have one more question before I can finish the tool: does an anacrusis always have to have an integer number of beats?
If not, it wouldn't be easy to process it correctly.
No.

For instance, there are plenty of songs with single, or three quaver anacruci (sp?) in 4/4 time.
E.G. "Don't Get Around Much Any More" has a 7 quaver anacrucis, though it is normally written as a full bar starting with a quaver rest.

Perhaps your tool could analyse the starting bar and ignore it if it isn't full.

Then you have the problem of unusual beat patterns.

In one of the concert bands I play in there are pieces that have, for example, a 5/4 section where the beat pattern is in 4 I.E. dotted crotchet, dotted crotchet, crotchet, crotchet.  Also compound time pieces where, say, a 7/8 piece has a beat pattern that changes bar on bar: 2,2,3 then 2,3,2 or 3,2,2 (where each beat is made up of the number of quavers shown).  It becomes non-trivial very quickly in those contexts.
I plays 'Bones, crumpets, coronets, floosgals, youfonymums 'n tubies.

Re: Beat Count

Reply #11 –
Maybe it's helpful to understand how beat patterns or beat counts arise (Lawrie's post says, I think, the same): They are not so much part of the written music, but part of the performance - and therefore, when there is a conductor, a decision of the conductor. Our choir conductor, after going through a piece with more complex time signatures, often pairs with me, and we have a talk like: "I could give halves here, but then change to quarters in the faster part" or "these 10/8 is actually a triplet+triplet+2 quarters feeling, so I'll conduct it like a 4/4 with a longer 1 and 2 - let's try this" etc.

There are pieces e.g. by John Rutter which are notated in 2/2, but (at least for our choir) need 4/4 conducting for a precise performance; and vice versa: Notated in 4/4, but for their "alla breve swing" need a 2/2 conducting. And of course hymns from the 16th century and before often just say "alle breve" or "2/2, 3/2", but need specific beat patterns for almost every other measure. Or think about "I like to be in America": Switching between 3/4 and 6/8 (i.e., two beats), but I'm not sure that Bernstein or anyone would care to switch between the two signatures in the notated music; and actually, when I tried it, I found I would direct it in full beats, i.e. one beat per measure - everything else gets too hectic.

So, beat organization is a selection/decision process from multiple options, determined by what is written, what is (or what the conductor wants to be) the "feeling" of the music, and what the performers are able to do ...

... thus, two important words in Andy's original posting are: "I am planning teaching my choir a piece with an irregular rhythm.", and maybe also "teaching": One might use detailed beat patterns for learning and rehearsal, but later switch to more coarse directing if everything runs smoothly.

Thus, for a tool: I would expect that one can
- run it over a complete score with selecting standard beat patterns ("for 5/n, use 2+3", or, "for 5/n, use 1.5+1.5+1+1", as in "Take Five"; "for 7/n, use 2+2+3"; and also: "for 4/n use 2+2", i.e., two beats);
- also run it over a selection and tell the tool to use different beat patterns in that part (i.e., replace what was there before, probably from an initial tool run).

H.M.

Re: Beat Count

Reply #12 –
One last thought: When talking about writing down beats, one also needs to talk about the beats before the piece - the "1 - 2 -, 1 2 3 4" of a standard jazz piece; or the "I'll give you a full measure of 1-2-3-4 upstart", or "We start with 3 - 4 - off we go!". That's actually the most commonplace beat notation singers and players write into a score - so maybe there should be some place for this also:
- Either in a notated "0th measure";
- or in a text above the first measure.
A tool might be nice enough to add that information, or at least a space where one could put it.

H.M.
 

Re: Beat Count

Reply #13 –
Quote from: hmmueller –
Maybe it's helpful to understand how beat patterns or beat counts arise (Lawrie's post says, I think, the same): They are not so much part of the written music, but part of the performance - and therefore, when there is a conductor, a decision of the conductor. Our choir conductor, after going through a piece with more complex time signatures, often pairs with me, and we have a talk like: "I could give halves here, but then change to quarters in the faster part" or "these 10/8 is actually a triplet+triplet+2 quarters feeling, so I'll conduct it like a 4/4 with a longer 1 and 2 - let's try this" etc.
<snip>
Then there's the scores where the beat pattern is actually specified by the composer*.  Not to mention changing beat patterns within an unchanging time signature section, sometimes bar on bar, plus changing time signatures, also sometimes bar on bar.

Fortunately these things don't happen that often, but they do happen.

It will be interesting to see what Opagust eventually comes up with.

* It's not uncommon for a conductor to ignore these directives depending on the orchestra/band skill level but they're rarely that much better, if at all.
I plays 'Bones, crumpets, coronets, floosgals, youfonymums 'n tubies.

Re: Beat Count

Reply #14 –
Quote from: Lawrie Pardy –

It will be interesting to see what Opagust eventually comes up with.


Thanks Mike, hmmueller and Lawrie for your comments.
I certainly had something to think about between watching the Olympics.
What I will probably come up with at the end will be entirely based on the time signatures, with special treatments for 'short' first measures, with or without an integer number of beats.
Always look on the bright side of life!
 

Re: Beat Count

Reply #16 –
Quote from: Opagust –
This is for you, hmmueller.
Would you be so kind to check it?
That looks really good.

In "real life", I/the conductor would probably change the beat patterns for the 5/8 and 7/8 measures manually.
For the 5/8, I would probably count 1-2-short3; i.e. use quarter beats like before and after, but the 5th eighth would get a "short third beat"; "one - two - THREE-one ..." is how I'd tell it to the singers. And the 7/8, depending on the text, might get a "long 2" or the like.

Having the beats like this in the score would help (have helped  ;) ) with rehearsals ...

H.M.

Re: Beat Count

Reply #18 –
An example where only manual beat writing would be possible ... not everything can be "done according to rules".
(BTW, methinks the accidentals in m.154 are somewhat off).

H.M.

Re: Beat Count

Reply #19 –
Quote from: hmmueller –
An example where only manual beat writing would be possible ... not everything can be "done according to rules".
<snip>
If the beaming patterns were followed in the ?/8 sections then a pretty good result would likely be achieved.
I plays 'Bones, crumpets, coronets, floosgals, youfonymums 'n tubies.

Re: Beat Count

Reply #22 –
Quote from: Opagust –
a pretty good result ?
I think I'd prefer to see 4 in a bar for most of the 9/8 sections and 3 for part too, following the beaming patterns, which in this case would also mirror the piano left hand.  I'd certainly be unhappy trying to follow a conductor beating quavers at that speed.
I plays 'Bones, crumpets, coronets, floosgals, youfonymums 'n tubies.

Re: Beat Count

Reply #24 –
Quote from: Lawrie Pardy –
Quote from: Opagust –
a pretty good result ?
I think I'd prefer to see 4 in a bar for most of the 9/8 sections and 3 for part too, following the beaming patterns, which in this case would also mirror the piano left hand.  I'd certainly be unhappy trying to follow a conductor beating quavers at that speed.

As I said before: the time signatures are decisive for the metronome beats, I have no intention to change that.
Always look on the bright side of life!

Re: Beat Count

Reply #25 –
Quote from: hmmueller –
And I have added an image that contains a few non-full-beat pickups (anacruses) from J.S.Bach's "Notenbüchlein für Anna Magdalena Bach" from 1725. There are more in there, and I also know of a number in church hymns.

H.M.

See attachments with non-full-beat-pickups
Always look on the bright side of life!

Re: Beat Count

Reply #26 –
Opangust - thank you for you response - and tool.
But.... I'm so new to using tools - I don't know how to use it!
I have tried in info on here - but it hasn't helped me.
I have downloaded your file ... Can you help me use it?
Many thanks
Andy

Re: Beat Count

Reply #27 –
Quote from: AndyL –
Opangust - thank you for you response - and tool.
But.... I'm so new to using tools - I don't know how to use it!
I have tried in info on here - but it hasn't helped me.
I have downloaded your file ... Can you help me use it?
Many thanks
Andy

You can't use my tool yet, I'll have to do some more tests before I post it. The files were results of some tests I wanted to be checked by the experts on the forum.
Always look on the bright side of life!