slurs vs. phrase marks 2008-04-19 03:20 pm Good morning, everyone (or good afternoon or good evening, depending on where you are) -It occurred to me this morning that a lot of the complaints we have about slurs could be resolved if the program would treat slurs and phrase marks differently.Currently, we create phrase marks by using extended slurs. This is convenient but wrong. The two forms of notation look much the same, but they have different functions. According to my good old New Dictionary of Music [Arthur Jacobs, Penquin, 1958], a phrase mark is "a line linking written notes and indicating that they belong to one phrase," while a slur is "a curved line grouping notes together and indicating that in performance they are to be joined smoothly together - sung in one breath, played with one stroke of the bow, etc." If NWC could recognize this difference, many of the problems associated with slurs could be dealt with - because they really arise out of confusion between the two different functions.From a programming standpoint, this shouldn't be too hard. A new object class would have to be defined, but it could use the same drawing routines as slurs do (the end points would have to be different). The program would "see" them differently, so all the tricks it currently uses to keep objects from interfering with each other should be adequate to allow slurs and phrase marks to coexist over the same notes. The biggest problem might be fitting them into the UI. They would clearly belong in the "Notes" menu, along with slurs and ties. <Alt+;> could work for the keyboard shortcut. A phrase-mark button might look like the current slur button, but with the curved arrow over the stem instead of under the notehead. All this probably would be messier to program than the objects themselves.By putting his slurs on a separate layer, Rick is essentially separating slurs and phrase marks already. We've all probably used Rick's trick once in a while when we needed both types of mark over the same notes. The beauty of layers is that they can easily handle situations like this. Still, it would be useful if the program itself recognized the difference between the two marks and didn't try to make one substitute for the other - with all the possible confusion that entails.Two days ago, my wife and I went on a hike in 80F weather. Today it's supposed to snow. That's spring in southern Oregon....Cheers,Bill Quote Selected
Re: slurs vs. phrase marks Reply #1 – 2008-04-19 04:34 pm Perhaps. Lilypond makes this distinction. You would need independent control of slur Upwards|Downwards and this would complicate the UI a bit. Also, NWC2 puts its slurs too far away when it slurs on stems. Adding another slur to that would require a lot of space.IMO, MIDI and playback should ignore phrasing slurs. To do otherwise would be a mess. Quote Selected
Re: slurs vs. phrase marks Reply #2 – 2008-04-19 05:22 pm Thanks for the feedback, Rick. I agree that MIDI and playback should ignore phrase marks. Less complicated to program, and not really necessary (although the end of one phrase should be audibly separated from the next, even in legato, so maybe they shouldn't be ignored completely: perhaps the first note after either a slur or a phrase should be treated as marcato, no matter what playing style has been chosen). As for slurs on stems, perhaps they could be dispensed with. Genuine slurs are a lot shorter than phrase marks, and it should always be possible for them to go notehead to notehead - as they do in most printed music. I think the spacing issues would sort themselves out, as they do now for slurs vs. ties, but I could be wrong. The handles for the ends of slurs that Lawrie has been advocating would definitely help solve the issues you raise.Cheers,Bill Quote Selected
Re: slurs vs. phrase marks Reply #3 – 2008-04-19 11:27 pm Bill, while I am aware a phrase mark is exactly that, it isn't always clear to a living musician reading a professionally engraved chart whether the arc is a slur or a phrase. I'm not sure how you could devise a rule for the program to follow. Sure, we could have specific commands, but for printing, I'm not sure I'd recognize the difference. A two bar slur or a two bar phrase look alike, don't they, unless there is a two bar phrase that includes a couple of slurred notes?For playback I wonder if a performance style for the notes that have slur markings would suffice? Quote Selected
Re: slurs vs. phrase marks Reply #4 – 2008-04-19 11:57 pm Quote from: William Ashworth – 2008-04-19 05:22 pmAs for slurs on stems, perhaps they could be dispensed with... it should always be possible for them to go notehead to notehead - as they do in most printed music.True for monophonic instruments. Definitely not true for piano music. Quote Selected
Re: slurs vs. phrase marks Reply #5 – 2008-04-20 02:15 am I reckon this would be solved with that line drawing capability I suggested some months ago... Quote Selected
Re: slurs vs. phrase marks Reply #6 – 2008-04-20 04:27 am I stand corrected on the piano music. And you're right, Rick, re the upwards/downwards problem mentioned earlier - although that, too, has ready-made code available (currently used for slurs and ties). We'd need a new drop-down list in the Note Properties dialogue box. That would require changing the layout of the dialogue box, since the line with the drop-down lists is already full. When you start fiddling with one thing, you find it affects everything else. I still think it would be worth it.David, you're right that the slur and the phrase mark can't be told apart at a glance. Fortunately, the computer doesn't have to know how to recognize one from what we see - it can recognize what object class it's dealing with by its label in the program. And we don't have to be able to tell them apart at sight in order to use them differently. Just being able to put a phrase mark over the top of slurs (including grace note slurs) seems reason enough. And the end point problem on slurs might be more easily correctable if not all of them were actually slurs. Just speculatin'. . . .Bill Quote Selected
Re: slurs vs. phrase marks Reply #7 – 2008-04-20 07:41 am I agree...But would they let non-grace notes slur/phrase mark into grace notes?Lawrie, I strongly support your line-drawing capability idea. Maybe you should make another font: SwingLines. (Since your others are so useful.) And make variations of it: SwingLines would have varying width (more or less randomly) and an imperfect curve, as if it were hand-drawn, MusikLinesSerif would have fancy edges and line width increasing towards the centre for curved lines, and MusikLinesSans would just be plain. :-) Quote Selected
Re: slurs vs. phrase marks Reply #8 – 2008-04-20 11:06 am G'day Kahman,yeah, don't reckon I'll take that one on somehow... Seriously, I reckon they'd be a pest to use. Quote Selected
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