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Topic: Timing and hardware (Read 8178 times) previous topic - next topic

Timing and hardware

I used NWC years ago on a PC that had some variety of old PCI Live or Value SoundBlaster card.  Worked great.  Haven't used NWC for years until recently, now on a laptop. 

Playing back a composition in NWC, I'm noticing the timing occasionally falters.  I'll just populate a staff with 1/8th notes, set a 95 tempo and play it, it's spot on tempo for 90% of the piece but once in a while it falters, sounds herky-jerky in random parts of the playback every time you play it.  I assume this is the playback hardware's fault.

Despite the fact this laptop is orders of magnitude "faster" than the PC I used to use, (a 2.0ghz core duo vs. a old 450mhz celeron) I'm assuming it's integrated sound is utter crap.  So much so that even an old PCI SB Value, which is crap, was actually better than what I've got in my laptop now.

Now I'm not too hardcore about this stuff, I know a musician with a full blown DAW studio/setup, he uses Sonar and he's got all kinds of crazy MIDI gear.  I'm not really a keyboard player so I just need something simple, relatively inexpensive that works with my laptop (and that will let me mess with SoundFonts) that I can compose musical scores with by hand in NWC, so what's important to me is playback accuracy rather than input latency and all that stuff. 

So I was checking out the PCMCIA card line from SoundBlaster (e.g. X-Fi Xtreme Audio Notebook and the Audigy 2 ZS Notebook) but the website is rather cryptic when it comes to MIDI.  Any suggestions?  Is there a defacto external sound device at or below 100 bucks that most people use that I should just go out and get?

Re: Timing and hardware

Reply #1 –
You could try Synthfont
http://www.synthfont.com
It's a soundfont player.
Download SynthFont version 1.071 from the download page.
There is also a VST version if you have a VST host program.

Re: Timing and hardware

Reply #2 –
G'day emachine,
I have a pretty good (HP 3GHz P4) notebook myself but softsynths seem to be problematic on it - timing and extraneous clicks using my Yamaha softsynth AND the Microsoft one that ships with XP.  Very disappointed.

However, as I don't use it for music much I haven't really bothered fixing it.

I would expect a hardware synth in a *PC/PCMCIA card sound card might well be a much better choice.  I have no idea whether these cards have MIDI I/O capability but I doubt it.  Looking at the SB website, the Soundblaster Audigy II Notebook mentions a Soundfont compatible synth - I assume it is a hardware one, the Xtreme product doesn't mention this so I don't know if it has a synth or not though I would expect it to.

There are also USB sound card type devices that you could consider...

Regardless, the onboard speakers will be a disappointment.

Probably the real quality problems you're having are:
a) Synth sample quality.
b) Speakers.

If you need MIDI I/O to/from external MIDI devices, then there are USB to MIDI interfaces available.  I have an Edirol UM-1ex which is excellent.

* PC cards are also known as CardBus which is a 32 bit PCI bus for notebooks, PCMCIA is a 16 bit bus.  I wouldn't let the difference bother me in a sound card situation - I'm pretty sure there is more than sufficient I/O capability in a 16 bit bus for audio requirements.
I plays 'Bones, crumpets, coronets, floosgals, youfonymums 'n tubies.

Re: Timing and hardware

Reply #3 –
Well all this time I've had a SoundBlaster Live! 24-bit External USB device but I had erroneously dismissed it as having no MIDI capability.  When I would plug it into my laptop, the plug & play Windows driver recognizes the device & allows the playback of wav/mp3 so, it was "working" and I never bothered to install Creatives driver for it.  It didn't show up as a MIDI playback device in Windows / NWC, so I assumed it just couldn't do it. 

2 days later out of pure boredom/desperation I installed Creatives driver and now it shows up as a MIDI playback device.  Install the driver - what a concept.

So using the USB SoundBlaster did the trick, my timing issues are gone & I can use soundfonts etc.

Re: Timing and hardware

Reply #4 –
Cool!
I plays 'Bones, crumpets, coronets, floosgals, youfonymums 'n tubies.

Re: Timing and hardware

Reply #5 –
Hi Folks,

New member, first post.

I use NWC to create drum tracks.  On my old P4 pc it worked flawlessly.  Now with my new Core 2 Duo, I am experiencing the hesitation problem mentioned here.

I've been gessing it's some kind of clocking problem with the dual processor, since I never upgraded either soundcard.

Any ideas?  Thank you!

Re: Timing and hardware

Reply #6 –
G'day lavaprovince,
welcome to the group...

Which OS are you running on the new PC? 
Do you have the most recent drivers for your sound card(s) and the OS installed?
Which synth are you using?
Is it a softsynth or a hardware one?
Are you using the default "MIDI Mapper" in which case you'll need to check which synth is asigned in Control Panel?

That's probably enough for now.
I plays 'Bones, crumpets, coronets, floosgals, youfonymums 'n tubies.

Re: Timing and hardware

Reply #7 –
I wasn't expecting the Spanish Inquisition...
(Nobody expects the Spanish Inquisition!)

Re: Timing and hardware

Reply #8 –
Har!  Thassa good one, Robden.  You make me laugh, perhaps because tears will not come.

OK, Lawrie, here goes.

Q:  Which OS are you running on the new PC? 

A:  XP

Q:  Do you have the most recent drivers for your sound card(s) and the OS installed?

A:  Don't know.  Just got this pc new last week from the same guy who has built all my pc's and they've always been fine so I'm gonna guess yes.

Q:  Which synth are you using?

A:  Control panel says "Microsoft GS Wavetable SW Synth

Q:  Is it a softsynth or a hardware one?

A:  Guessing soft, since no hardware is connected to pc.

Q:  Are you using the default "MIDI Mapper" in which case you'll need to check which synth is asigned in Control Panel?

A:  I think I answered this in the "which synth are you using" question, but if not, control panel also mentions Sigma Tel Audio 1 several times under the Audio, Voice and Hardware tabs, if that helps.

Thank you very much for taking the time to help me with this.  And please don't let Robden get you down with his witty quips.  I may not have expected the Spanish Inquisition, but I welcome it!

Re: Timing and hardware

Reply #9 –
G'day lavaprovince,
Rob 'n I are old "sparring partners" - he's a good bloke!

Now:
Quote
Q:  Do you have the most recent drivers for your sound card(s) and the OS installed?

A:  Don't know.  Just got this pc new last week from the same guy who has built all my pc's and they've always been fine so I'm gonna guess yes.

I recommend you don't guess - check - it isn't hard, just go to the web site of your sound card manufacturer and look for driver downloads.


Quote
Q:  Which synth are you using?

A:  Control panel says "Microsoft GS Wavetable SW Synth

This is a softsynth - it uses a Roland sample set but isn't wonderful - some sounds are fairly good but on average it ain't great.

I suggest that you check if there are other synths available - especially hardware ones.  In particular, if you have a Creative sound card like the Audigy or SB Live! ranges - these cards give you the ability to load soundfonts.  There are other whole threads about the search for the perfect sound font - I have personally found the "Airfont 340" to be a good all rounder though I normally use a Yamaha softsynth which is no longer available :(  I would really love to have the Yamaha samples in a soundfont.  If you like preparing jazz scores, then the Chaos 8 Meg is a good choice - another member, Barry, put me on to this one.

Given that you are chasing a "hesitation" problem I suggest a hardware synth might be your best answer.
I plays 'Bones, crumpets, coronets, floosgals, youfonymums 'n tubies.

Re: Timing and hardware

Reply #10 –
OK, Lawrie, I will find out about the driver.  Apparently the Sigma Tel Audio is the soundcard that came built into my Core 2 Duo mother board.  My last P4 pc had SoundMax built in and worked fine, no "hesitation".

I'm just using NWC to create skeleton drum tracks for my songs.  I don't really care about the soundfont quality cuz all I'm doing with them is practicing at home to the drums then recording guitars, bass, keys, vox and drums as audio tracks at a commercial studio. 

I'm not really asking much of this simple card, just keep the beat like the old pc, you know? 

Eventually I will get a notebook dedicated to recording and I'll get a pro-Tools M-Box or whatever to do what I need, but for now I was hoping not to have to upgrade my card.

Luckily I still have my old pc and can fire it up to play my drum tracks.  Seems like a shame to have to have it taking up space just for this one function my new system can't handle.  Grrr!

Re: Timing and hardware

Reply #11 –
G'day lavaprovince,
OK, just checked the Sigmatel site and they don't provide drivers etc.  Seems they only sell audio ASIC's and the motherboard/sound card vendor is expected to create and provide the required drivers.

This means you need to go to the site of you motherboard manufacturer and hope they have an update available.

You may also have a system BIOS issue.  It might be well worth hitting the motherboard manfacturers web site to see if they have a specific update for this.

Another possibiity is to do a "Windows update".  If you are using automatic updates, then you are only receiving "critical" ones.  m$ often have driver updates that are optional and you have to actually visit the site for them to be offered.  Windows update is available from the IE "Tools" menu.

A search of the m$ support site might reveal limitations in their softsynth when running on a core duo system.  They may even have an update...
I plays 'Bones, crumpets, coronets, floosgals, youfonymums 'n tubies.

Re: Timing and hardware

Reply #12 –
A stutter on play back would tend to indicate that something else on the system, with a higher priority, is interfering with the NWC play back sequencing. Some things to consider:

  • Make sure you are using the latest version of NWC (1.75c) or NWC2.
  • If note chase is enabled, consider turning it off (although, this should not cause stutter problems on modern systems with the latest NWC release).
  • Low level hardware events can cause PC stuttering. For example, inserting CD/DVD media into the drive can cause Windows to stutter while the computer deals with spinning up and scanning the media.
  • A failing piece of hardware can cause considerable PC stutter issues. For example, a hard drive that is beginning to fail can really slow a system down, especially as the system attempts to deal with the failures.
  • The Windows Task Manager can be useful for finding processes on the system that are misbehaving. Right click on the task list to open it (or use Ctrl+Alt+Delete), Processes tab, sort on the CPU column, with highest at the top.

Re: Timing and hardware

Reply #13 –
My solution turned out to be a new sound card.  I went with a Creative X-Mod, a usb solution.  Player works fine now.

Thanks to Lawrie for your help, and to Admin.  In the process I updated to c from b version of NWC and reduced my CPU usage from about 50% to 5%.  A nice side benefit.

Thanks again.

Re: Timing and hardware

Reply #14 –
G'day lavaprovince,
I'm glad you're happy with your result.  Please tell me, this new Creative USB solution you have, can you load sound fonts into it?
I plays 'Bones, crumpets, coronets, floosgals, youfonymums 'n tubies.
 

Re: Timing and hardware

Reply #16 –
Thanks Eric,
looks interesting but obviously doesn't give you a synth.

I've recently had a quick look at Vista, searching for the Midi mapper actually - they've removed it :(  I don't think I'll EVER understand m$.  As far as I can see, there is NO WAY to change the default MIDI synth for the system as a whole, only on an application by application basis - provided your app. supports it internally!

Anyway, during some reading I came across a vague reference to dual/quad core and dual/multiple CPU systems having problems with sound cards stuttering (not the word actually used but the same intent).  Seems the problem is somehow related to queuing processes/threads.  Some progress huh!
I plays 'Bones, crumpets, coronets, floosgals, youfonymums 'n tubies.