Overlapping chords with runs

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Overlapping chords with runs

2006-01-04 03:34 am

This should not be that difficult to do in ANY notation program, but I can't find any help in documentation or the user tips. I'm writing a Piano part in which a chord is held for the full length of the measure by using the pedal, while eigth notes are playing over top of it. Problem is, I can't put the eigth notes overtop the chord, it pushes them four beats ahead. I've used other programs like Sibelius, and they have an option for allowing multiple voices in a staff that allows for this. What's Noteworthy's equivalent of this?

Re: Overlapping chords with runs

Reply #1 – 2006-01-04 05:27 am

Yes! Layering.
See faq24.

Re: Overlapping chords with runs

Reply #2 – 2006-01-04 05:42 am

G'day Nathan,
if you know how to make the chord that is being held, then you already have the knowledge you need.

Simply chord the first [abbr=8th note]quaver[/abbr] with the chord you already have. The following 7 quavers will then fill out the bar correctly.

There will only be a problem of the first quaver needs to be in the "middle" of the chord. E.G a 'C' chord where the 'C' and the 'G' are held but the 'E' between them is the quaver.

In this case you will need to use layering as suggested by Francis.

Lawrie

Re: Overlapping chords with runs

Reply #3 – 2006-01-04 06:14 am

And just to make sure: Ctrl-Enter does the trick.

Re: Overlapping chords with runs

Reply #4 – 2006-01-04 08:28 am

... and you need to enter the short note first (the quaver), and the rest of the notes (the whole notes in the chord) have to be set for the opposite stem direction.

Re: Overlapping chords with runs

Reply #5 – 2006-01-04 10:24 am

David – that's simply not true!

Re: Overlapping chords with runs

Reply #6 – 2006-01-04 12:29 pm

Indeed - there is no NEED to do that. It always works, so much is true. But if a stem direction is not set, then chording works without a worry. Notes of equal length then get the same stem direction (the default) and notes of different length get oppositie stem directions - all by magic.
Where I sit now I cannot check this. So I hope my assertion can be confirmed or corrected.

Re: Overlapping chords with runs

Reply #7 – 2006-01-04 01:12 pm

The point: Yes, the original request can be done, and is routinely done in NWC. However, the logic and terminology behind the way it is done in different programs (NWC, Sibelius) is somewhat different. So, if you know how to do it in program A, that may hinder you when you try to do the same thing in program B.

Re: Overlapping chords with runs

Reply #8 – 2006-01-04 01:47 pm

NW 1.75b:
If the same duration, you can always add another note with ctrl-enter.

If the note to be added is a different duration:
If higher (on the staff), the stem must be down on the existing note.
If lower, stem must be up upon the existing note.
If the staff positions are equal, the shorter note is considered to be the lower note (regardless of accidentals).

Whole notes have "implicit stems" (which matter)

In NWC2, stem direction does not matter, if it is NOT SET.
(unlike 1.75b, it is tristate). If set, the above rules apply.

In both versions:
To create a rest chord, the rest MUST be entered first.
IOW, ctrl-spacebar does nothing!

In 1.75b, the rest MUST be shorter than the note
In NWC2, the rest must not be longer.

Why any of this matters is a great mystery.

HTH,
Rick G.

Re: Overlapping chords with runs

Reply #9 – 2006-01-04 02:19 pm

unlike 1.75b, it is tristate.

That's not true either! Versions 1 and 2 exhibit identical behaviour. The only case which causes problems is where the stem direction is set incompatibly on the existing note or in the icon bar (for the second note) before you do Ctrl+Enter to put ithe second note in

In 1.75b, the rest MUST be shorter than the note

True, but you can select the rest chord and use minus to reduce everything to 64ths and then plus to bring it back to the correct value.

Re: Overlapping chords with runs

Reply #10 – 2006-01-04 04:21 pm

Peter:
I stand corrected. Why chord entry should care about whether the stem direction is set (and "audit note stems" is so blithely ignorant about it) is still a great mystery.

Chord entry is one of the least user friendly aspects of this program. In NWC2, often I use a User Tool to send it to NotePad and edit chords by hand.

Re: Overlapping chords with runs

Reply #11 – 2006-01-05 05:01 am

Must have been misremembering from a long time ago. Or just misremembering.

I do notice that if I enter a half note, then a quarter note above it in the same chord, version 2 automatically forces the stems in opposite directions.

I also see that where I have a half note middle C, enter a quarter note A below it, I can't enter a quarter note E above it but can enter a half note E.

Re: Overlapping chords with runs

Reply #12 – 2006-01-05 08:50 am

Well, I wasn't misremembering all of it, just mixing up two recollections of what is in Help. I wrote this:

!i(... and you need to enter the short note first (the quaver), and the rest of the notes (the whole notes in the chord) have to be set for the opposite stem direction.)

Item 3 of the Help topic Chord Member Command in both versions 1.75 and 2 says:

"If a chord member is added to an existing note, it must have the same duration, or it must be in the opposing stem direction. "

Item 4 says:
A chord containing a rest is created by first placing the rest, and then adding one or more notes to that rest. The duration of the rest must be smaller than that of the notes that are added to it. The stem direction assigned to the rest must be different (opposite) than the note that is being added, or the operation will fail.

Vindicated? No. Still doubting my sanity? No, that's for others to judge (grin).

Re: Overlapping chords with runs

Reply #13 – 2006-01-05 12:31 pm

I think one point of confusion is where Peter contradicts your statement unlike 1.75b, it is tristate. It is tristate, but so is 1.75b. If a note (or rest) is entered with no specified stem direction, the stem direction can be forced by adding another note to the chord of different length.
The other restriction here is that all notes with the same stem direction must be grouped together in the chord. In other words, you can't have two crotchets (for example) with a quaver if the pitch of the quaver is between those of the two crotchets.
I have found this a problem in the past - you have to resort to layering in this case, and layering an entire new staff for the sake of a few notes that won't fit together in a chord is a real pain! Often, I simply replace the quaver (for example) with two tied crotchets. Doesn't look right, but it sounds right, which in my case is nearly always the important thing.

Re: Overlapping chords with runs

Reply #14 – 2006-01-06 07:05 am

What does "tristate" mean?

Re: Overlapping chords with runs

Reply #15 – 2006-01-06 07:35 am

G'day David,
tristate - 3 states - it can exist in any of 3 conditions or states..

E.G. a normal light switch is bistate - it can be on or off.

Not to be confused with tri- or bistable. Take the reset switch on your computer. It is bistate, but monostable. I.E. it can be on or off but will only rest (be stable) in the off position.

Lawrie

Re: Overlapping chords with runs

Reply #16 – 2006-01-06 08:19 am

In this case, tristate means "stems up", "stems down" or "stems whichever way is convenient". The last state can be forced to one of the other two by adding new notes to the chord of different length.

Alternatively, it could refer to a competition involving three (US) states ;-)

Robin

Re: Overlapping chords with runs

Reply #17 – 2006-01-06 10:07 am

Harry Potter and the Tristate Tournament?

Re: Overlapping chords with runs

Reply #18 – 2006-01-07 04:41 am

Thanks.