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Topic: Feature requests: Text Expression entry box/Leger lines hints (Read 11310 times) previous topic - next topic

Feature requests: Text Expression entry box/Leger lines hints

Text Expression entry box:
What I'd like to see is a different approach to entering font styles in NWC. As it is now, you first have to go through Page Setup dialog, modify your font, save your changes, go to Text Expression dialog, use the Display font gadget, and, hopefully, you have entered everything correctly in the first dialog box, and at the correct size for your printout. If not, you need to go back and, yada yada yada. You get the picture, I hope. It's a major pain in the you-know-what to do.
I'd really like to see that you could select a text item on a score, change its appearence to whatever you wanted, and in as many different styles as you wanted, much like you can do in e.g. Word and similar apps. The present, somewhat archaic method of changing a font, is IMHO quite outdated and resembles how things were done in 1990 more than what it ought to be in 2005. Instead of: |Font:StaffItalic|, one could imagine something like: |Font=Arial,Size=8,Color=clBlack,Style=Bold,Italic|

Leger lines hints:
With this I mean that as you move the caret above or below the staff, grayish leger lines should appear to indicate on which line you are. Now they don't appear until you hit Enter.

Re: Feature requests: Text Expression entry box/Leger lines hints

Reply #1 –
Pär said:
"The present, somewhat archaic method of changing a font, is IMHO quite outdated and resembles how things were done in 1990 more than what it ought to be in 2005. Instead of: |Font:StaffItalic|, one could imagine something like: |Font=Arial,Size=8,Color=clBlack,Style=Bold,Italic|"

I'd agree with this only if it was an optional override.
I think of Font:StaffItalic as similar to Word's Style concept.
Often you want the same style for - say - all your chord marks. Here it is sensible to have the definitions all in one common spot, rather than having to change each instance of text if you want to change the appearance of your chord marks.

"Leger lines hints:
With this I mean that as you move the caret above or below the staff, grayish leger lines should appear to indicate on which line you are. Now they don't appear until you hit Enter."

Sounds like a good idea.

Re: Feature requests: Text Expression entry box/Leger lines hints

Reply #2 –
Ledger line hints sound good to me too.  I do a lot of arranging for flutes, so I spend a lot of time an octave or so above the top ledger line. My wife (the flute player) says flute players are used to this...

I use ctl+up and ctl+dn a lot to get a reference point in the staff. Works pretty well.
Registered user since 1996

Re: Feature requests: Text Expression entry box/Leger lines hints

Reply #3 –
Along those lines, maybe using style classes would be best? Like CSS. The user would define what each class meant, in terms of font, weight, color, whatever. Something like that would keep the amount of text in NWC2 clips smaller.

An advantage of classes is that they could be named according to concept, just the way current trends are in web page coding. Thus  |Font:emphatic| or |Font:italian| of |Font:sotto| might mean any arbitrary styles, which could be globally changed by another user, according to taste. It would also be a good lead-in to XML, if ever the format wants to evolve that way.

Re: Feature requests: Text Expression entry box/Leger lines hints

Reply #4 –
Rick said :
'I use ctl+up and ctl+dn a lot to get a reference point in the staff. Works pretty well.'

So it seems to move the cursor up or down by 1 octave. Did'nt know that.

But, why isn't it mentioned in the keyboard guide?

Re: Feature requests: Text Expression entry box/Leger lines hints

Reply #6 –
That's a cool idea, David.

What I've been doing is writing the flute parts down an octave from reality, then transposing up an octave when finished.

Re: Feature requests: Text Expression entry box/Leger lines hints

Reply #7 –
Glad to help out.

Re: Feature requests: Text Expression entry box/Leger lines hints

Reply #8 –
[Andrew Purdam]
> I'd agree with this only if it was an optional override.
> I think of Font:StaffItalic as similar to Word's Style concept.
> Often you want the same style for - say - all your chord marks.
> Here it is sensible to have the definitions all in one common spot,
> rather than having to change each instance of text if you want to
> change the appearance of your chord marks.

Well, suppose if you could alter the font and style from within the Text Expression dialog and keep the present styles concept? Even this little change would mean a lot. It also wouldn't hurt to have a few more user styles to choose from. Only six user settings is a tad limiting.

[David Palmquist]
> Reference points for leger lines? - Check out Reply 2 to article #168

Yes, anything can be done with some work, but why should it be necessary? I mean, we are using computers, and those animals should set things up for us, not the other way around. It was to avoid having to do things like this that I came up with the idea. I honestly don't think it would require much extra code to do, since the leger lines are obviously already there to use.

Re: Feature requests: Text Expression entry box/Leger lines hints

Reply #9 –
I agree!  Work arounds are usually way too time consuming and they don't always do the trick! It would be nice to have a real fix. As long as they are working on the next generation, why not see what they can do?  After all, that is the idea isn't it?

Re: Feature requests: Text Expression entry box/Leger lines hints

Reply #10 –
Pär and DGF,

I agree software should do many things, but I am mindful of the saying, "Just because you can do something doesn't mean you should."

I appreciate the elegant simplicity of NWC.  I really don't want a program that is all things for all people.  Too many programs have been spoiled when they've been improved too much.

I want the software to be user-friendly, to remain very inexpensive, and to be very easy to re-learn if I'm away from it for some months.

The magic of NWC 1 and 2 is the availability of workarounds for so many things the programs won't do automatically.

These forums are magic too, when we help each other.

David

Re: Feature requests: Text Expression entry box/Leger lines hints

Reply #11 –
[David Palmquist]
> I agree software should do many things, but I am mindful
> of the saying, "Just because you can do something
> doesn't mean you should."

And I'm of the belief that if you add something which improves an existing software, it will make said software more desirable.

> I appreciate the elegant simplicity of NWC. I really don't want
> a program that is all things for all people.

Really? I guess it's futile asking for more features then. :-)

> Too many programs have been spoiled when they've been
> improved too much.

And you think that this idea would be to spoil it?

> I want the software to be user-friendly, to remain very
> inexpensive, and to be very easy to re-learn if I'm away from
> it for some months.

I don't think you'd have to re-learn something that (potentially) would, or could, if it was made an option, work by default.

I also don't think it would make the price on the NWC software skyrocket to any unreachable heights, if any at all. Without knowing, I'd guess it ought to fit nicely into a minor version upgrade.

As for user-friendliness, well, I'm a bit confused with your argument here, because isn't my idea an example of how it would be more user-friendly, as opposed to less? I see less workarounds as something to strive for. You don't?

> The magic of NWC 1 and 2 is the availability of workarounds
> for so many things the programs won't do automatically.

The trouble is to find/remember the workaround when you need it..."having been away from the software for some months." ;-)

> These forums are magic too, when we help each other.

Who argued with that? My forum entry wasn't made to help anyone, it was a feature request, which I was hoping would lead to a discussion about it. Which is essentially what we're doing, right? :-)

Your(?) original idea/workaround with adding a layered, empty (sort of) staff and use this, works fine. But let's face it, it's a workaround to an existing problem.

The idea with leger lines hints solves the problem.

Re: Feature requests: Text Expression entry box/Leger lines hints

Reply #12 –
"The idea with leger lines hints solves the problem."

Not so much as you might think.

On the treble clef, my mind "gives up" on E below the bottom line and A above the top line. Having ledger lines would be of at best, limited help.

A better solution would be a "phantom cursor" in the form of a smaller, or lighter or different colored rectangle that stays within the ledger lines at a discrete number of octaves from the real cursor. I would always recognize the pitch and it would not be long before I recognized the difference between 1, 2 or 3 octaves.

Possibly better than that would be a line in the status bar in the form of bar:beat:click:pitch where click is in [abbr=Parts per quarter note, a MIDI term]PPQ's[/abbr].
A typical entry might look like: 32:2:96:C5
Registered user since 1996

Re: Feature requests: Text Expression entry box/Leger lines hints

Reply #13 –
Perhaps another set of workarounds for the status bar!

Re: Feature requests: Text Expression entry box/Leger lines hints

Reply #14 –
bar:beat:click:pitch

Not a bad idea.  A few questions to work out:

How would bar:beat:click:pitch display the subdivisions of the beat, such as the third 16th note of beat 3 in 4/4 time?

How would you suggest displaying the second and third notes of a triplet, either where the triplet equals one beat, or where it spans several, such as triplet half notes in a 4/4 measure?

Would it be feasible to use the bar:beat:click:pitch when one staff is showing triplets while another staff is in straight time in that bar, or if two staffs have different time signatures?

I'm not familiar with PPQ.  Does it deal with these issues?

Re: Feature requests: Text Expression entry box/Leger lines hints

Reply #15 –
The "click" is the number of ticks per quarter note based on the PPQ.
NoteWorthy uses 192 ticks per quarter so in the example the note is located at the midway point between beats 2 and 3 (96 "clicks").
The click or tick will define accurately the location of the note within the limit of the 192 ticks per quarter note.

Re: Feature requests: Text Expression entry box/Leger lines hints

Reply #16 –
Response to https://forum.noteworthycomposer.com/?topic=5097.msg32285#msg32285:

At the beginning of every midi file is a header chunk. One of the elements of every header chunk is called division, which represents how finely a quarter note can be divided. This number is the "parts per quarter note" (PPQ or sometimes PPQN)
It is almost always 192 or 384. Noteworthy always exports it as 192 and the rest of this discussion will assume PPQ=192. One PPQ is called a "click". A 16th note would be 194/4 or 48 clicks.

Each note of this:
Code: [Select · Download]
!NoteWorthyComposerClip(2.0,Single)
|Clef|Type:Treble
|Key|Signature:C
|TimeSig|Signature:4/4
|Note|Dur:Half|Pos:-6
|Rest|Dur:4th
|Note|Dur:16th|Pos:-5|Opts:Stem=Up,Beam=First
|Note|Dur:16th|Pos:-4|Opts:Stem=Up,Beam
|Note|Dur:16th|Pos:-3|Opts:Stem=Up,Beam
|Note|Dur:16th|Pos:-2|Opts:Stem=Up,Beam=End
|Bar
|Note|Dur:Half,Dotted|Pos:-6
|Note|Dur:8th,Triplet=First|Pos:-5|Opts:Stem=Up,Beam=First
|Note|Dur:8th,Triplet|Pos:-4|Opts:Stem=Up,Beam
|Note|Dur:8th,Triplet=End|Pos:-3|Opts:Stem=Up,Beam=End
|Bar
|Note|Dur:Half,Triplet=First|Pos:-2
|Note|Dur:Half,Triplet|Pos:-1
|Note|Dur:Half,Triplet=End|Pos:0
!NoteWorthyComposerClip-End
Would result in a bar:beat:click:pitch of:
1:0:0:c5
1:3:0:d5
1:3:48:e5
1:3:96:f5
1:3:144:g5
2:0:0:c5
2:3:0:d5
2:3:64:e5
2:3:128:f5
3:0:0:g5
3:1:64:a5
3:2:128:b5

You last question about 2 staves is irrelevant since the idea is to put the cursor position in the status bar and the cursor can only be on one staff at any one time.

It did lead me to an interesting discovery. If you put different time sigs on staffs, export it, then import it, the time sig of the first staff becomes the time sig of all the staves!
Add a new staff to the above example and paste this in:
Code: [Select · Download]
!NoteWorthyComposerClip(2.0,Single)
|Clef|Type:Treble
|Key|Signature:C
|TimeSig|Signature:12/8
|Note|Dur:Whole|Pos:-4
|Bar
|Note|Dur:Whole|Pos:-4
|Bar
|Note|Dur:Whole|Pos:-4
!NoteWorthyComposerClip-End
Now export it and import it.
I don't know if this is a Noteworthy or a MIDI constraint.

I have wished for a number of years that Noteworthy's implementation of the multipoint controller would allow me to express offsets in PPQ's and allow note on events, but I never wrote up a request deeming it too advanced for the typical user.
Registered user since 1996

Re: Feature requests: Text Expression entry box/Leger lines hints

Reply #17 –
Thanks Barry and Rick.

Re: Feature requests: Text Expression entry box/Leger lines hints

Reply #18 –
The ledger line idea sounds like it would work well in NWC2.
Finale has that attribute which works well in its environment because the program also has note entry by mouse click, (which we don't want for a whole host of reasons!). When the caret is moved above or below the staff, the lines appear automatically as you go so that you know where you are when you enter your note.  As it is now, you have to count spaces while arrowing down, or enter the note and move it up or down afterward if you don't hit it right the first time. Of course if you are moving by octaves, you can Shift/Ctrl arrow up or down and count that way. Understandably, if you are not used to being in the upper or lower reaches of a staff, your mind might  "give up" as Rick G states, but for many that is where they dwell. I think it would be a very useful item to have.
And David, I agree with you, "Just because you can doesn't mean you should".  I have never been able to use Finale for that reason.  It is so complicated and user unfriendly that it is worthless to me. One of it's main downfalls in my opinion is the mouse note entry feature.

Re: Feature requests: Text Expression entry box/Leger lines hints

Reply #19 –
One of it's main downfalls ...
One of its main downfalls

Re: Feature requests: Text Expression entry box/Leger lines hints

Reply #20 –
Thanks for the grammar lesson.

Re: Feature requests: Text Expression entry box/Leger lines hints

Reply #21 –
While you're on the PPQ's, does this have anything to do with the fact that we can't seem to have duplets or septuplets and the like?

Re: Feature requests: Text Expression entry box/Leger lines hints

Reply #22 –
Re: DGF on duplets and septuplets:

Not really. Some of them can't be timed exactly, but with PPQ=192, a note lasting 1 click would be a triplet 512th note!
Unless the tempo was very, very slow, no one could hear the unevenness. It would be better than any human and probably better than any piano roll. More like a swiss music box.

Many MIDI files are PPQ=384.
Registered user since 1996

Re: Feature requests: Text Expression entry box/Leger lines hints

Reply #23 –
Rick
Is there some other difficulty then with the idea of this feature request, or do you think it will come before NWC2 is released? I haven't heard anything about it recently.
 

Re: Feature requests: Text Expression entry box/Leger lines hints

Reply #24 –
Don't know, DFG. Just an idea I've been toying with. Part of a generalized solution to n-tuplets which would require even more changes.  The essence of a forum is to throw ideas around to see which ones "stick".

I think that is what the Greeks thought a forum was.  I could be wrong ...
Registered user since 1996