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Topic: Problems after diminuendos (Read 5579 times) previous topic - next topic

Problems after diminuendos

I'm having problems with the dim., cresc. features.
When I first start a fadeout, I set the volume to say, a 127 with the fortissimo mark. Then I add the dim. mark to fade out a note. And then, like you're suppose to, I finish it off by adding the last dynamic (say maybe a piano with a volume set to 40).
Well, that works just fine and dandy but when I try resuming the volume back to a fortissimo after the fade, for some reason it's just quieter. I end up having to set the new midi vol. to 127 specifically for each new fff dynamic and if I go back sometime after to using a piano, with a midi volume set higher than its default, it doesn't work.  This is a serious problem because I want some ease with controlling the volume after a fade.  If anyone can find a solution, I'd be very grateful.

Re: Problems after diminuendos

Reply #1 –
Are you using MPCs along with standard dynamics?  Therein lies the problem.

Re: Problems after diminuendos

Reply #2 –
You have it correct. When specifying volume overrides, you have to specify the volume override for each dynamic. A dynamic never changes the MIDI volume unless you explicitly tell it to do so (via the override option).

Re: Problems after diminuendos

Reply #3 –
Okay, this is a bit confusing for me to explain - I'm not sure if I said it right, sorry.  What I'm trying to do is write the third movement of Rachmaninov's second piano concerto and with the bassoons lies the problem that needs to be worked out. What it does is it fades from a mf to a pp and then later fades again with the same dynamics. But for some reason you can't seem to do it the same way twice. I'd just like to know the best way to accomplish this so it does sound like garbage.

Re: Problems after diminuendos

Reply #4 –
Forget the mpc, Greg.  Just use ordinary dynamics.

The first occurence of the passage, you have mf, dim and pp.  Most "correct" instrumentalists playing the printed part will stay at pp until they see another dynamic instruction.  The second decrescendo is probably incorrect in theory, unless the intent is to go from pp to ppp in this diminuendo.

If you want the dim. to start from mf instead of from pp, you need to show it to the musician reading the part.

NWC's logic is the same.  It will start the second decrescendo from the volume of the dynamic preceding it.  You need to insert the mf dynamic before the diminuendo to give NWC a starting volume for the dynamic change.

While I don't think you should do so (and I'm probably wrong anyway about the theory) you could enter the mf symbol, and set its visibility to "never" (highlight the dynamic symbol, use Ctrl-E and the Visibility tab).

Doesn't answer your concern about the MPC, but MPC is fairly complicated and why go that route if you can accomplish the same effect another, easier way?

Re: Problems after diminuendos

Reply #5 –
Actually, I don't think I said I used an mpc.

But the problem is that the way Noteworthy deals with volume and velocity makes things a little bit jumbled. In this case, I'm trying to override the midi velocity of the pp just a little to make it louder before and after the fade, but because of the volume settings having been overriden, the velocity gets messed up.

At the first fade, I set the mf to (-,65) use dim. and end in pp(40,30). Then I use pp(40,40) but it sounds silent. So then the second fade comes. I use again, mf(-,65)- dim.- pp(40,30). But this fade sounds horrible. It remains the same volume for 2 quarter notes and then gets quieter unevenly for the last 4 quarter notes (the whole fade is over a sustained note). And then it gets silent again once I set it back to pp(40,30).

What the heck am I doing wrong?? The goal is to basically use pp overriden to 40(the velocity), fade from a mf to a regular pp, continue with a pp overriden again to the same 40 and then do the same fade as the first and again, for the third time, continue with the overriden pp. I really appreciate all of you taking your time out to figure this out.

Re: Problems after diminuendos

Reply #6 –
When performing swells and fades on sustained notes, you should try to implement these with MIDI Volume changes. Assuming your sound card supports volume changes on notes that are already sounding, this will give the most uniform results. If you combine MIDI Volume changes with MIDI Note Velocity changes, then your swell or fade will generally be more dramatic at the point where a note first sounds (depending on the instrument patch).

See also: https://forum.noteworthycomposer.com/?topic=3840

Re: Problems after diminuendos

Reply #7 –
So do you mean by overriding the velocity of the pp to make it louder and using the volume fade at the same time it becomes a greater fade?
Maybe I should just spend a while experimenting... after all, that's how you learn to do anything, right? At least for me... I'll post another reply if I figure it out or if I can get it to where I've exhausted every possibility and I still can't figure it out.

Re: Problems after diminuendos

Reply #8 –
just read your post.
You may also check that you don't have another staff using the same midi channel, on which (just at your 2nd diminuendo) you may have set another velocity and/or volume variation.
But as a general rule, try to avoid fiddling with velocity and volume at the same time. More, you can't know how it will sound on another sound system!

Re: Problems after diminuendos

Reply #10 –
Okay, this is a lot to take in... just give me a little time to read this and I'll reply back.

Re: Problems after diminuendos

Reply #11 –
ok.... its been awhile.

Marsu,
no, the tracks are on different channels.

Tim B.,
what your post is for is when you don't need to constantly change volume. It says that you don't change the volume unless maybe in one part you do for dramatic purposes. In my case, volume change is needed consistently because despite the score indicating a pp dynamic, I feel as though it should be played just a little bit louder but not piano, thus a volume override is absolutely necessary. I would be glad if you or someone could find a workaround - maybe do a little something involving expression?

Re: Problems after diminuendos

Reply #12 –
Did you try to only override velocity values?
You can do a diminuendo from piano to fortissimo, or a crescendo from fff to ppp, just by using the overriden values (or mixing the items).
What I mean here is that you can have a p(30,-) as well as a p(90,-). Use the volume only for long notes (and do not forget that not all the sound cards do it, check yours with the Voltest.nwc sample file).
You also may check there is no hidden Diminuendo, Crescendo nor Decrescendo item somewhere that you wouldn't want.
You can find them by Ctrl+F (menu Edit/Find) and enter the following search string:
|DynamicVariance|Style:*endo
Find next using F3. As usual, the Find tool is a one-staff tool.
HTH!

Re: Problems after diminuendos

Reply #13 –
Marsu,
Velocity was not the only thing overriden, indeed. I overrode the volume because, of course, that was necessary to achieve the dim. of the sustained note, and yes, I'm positive that my sound card is capable of volume changes on sustained notes because I did test it with the Voltest.nwc file and it worked.... But hey, here's a great idea!
To see the whole ordeal yourself, how about you follow these steps, please, in order to understand the nature of this problem.

1. Open up a new file and set the instrument to any wind type(one that can sustain notes long), or strings
2. At the very beginning, insert a piano dynamic and override the velocity and play one note.
3. Insert another overriden dynamic, such as mezzo forte with an overriden velocity and volume and add a note just after that which ties to another bar.
4. Insert a dim. mark just after that and then a piano dynamic with the same overriden properties as the first but with a volume override of the same value of the velocity override (should be right before the note that is tied from the last bar).
5. Finally,  just add a couple of notes after that and see if you can even hear them

If you can do just that, I'd like to see what happens- I'd be glad to hear what does!
 

Re: Problems after diminuendos

Reply #14 –
oh, never mind...
i've finally found out what i did wrong- it involved putting a slur where a tie should have been and a few other things, but basically i've fixed everything and it's all good!!!