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Off-topic: Questions about wind instruments

Greetings,

I have some questions about wind instruments (both
Brass and Woodwind), since I do not play any, nor do
I know anyone who does. It seems that there are a wide
variety of musicians using NWC, so I thought I would
ask here.
(Note: When I say "how difficult is it?" I am wondering
if the "average" player will be able to do this.)

- What does "flutter-tongue" mean and what does it sound
like? How is it done, and how difficult is it?

- Is vibrato (small, fast change in pitch up and down)
possible? How is it done, and how difficult is it?

- Is "tremolo" (small, fast change in volume up and down)
possible? How is it done, and how difficult is it? Is
"tremolo" the right word?

- How much do players have to rest to catch their breath?
(or, how tiring is it to play a wind instrument?)

- What is the longest that a note can be held?
(before the player turns blue)

- Is "bending" notes (slow gliding between notes)
possible? How is it done, and how difficult is it?
What is the right word for this?

Thanks for your time and input! :-)

M.P.

Re: Off-topic: Questions about wind instruments

Reply #1 –
<<- Is vibrato (small, fast change in pitch up and down)
possible? How is it done, and how difficult is it?

- How much do players have to rest to catch their breath?
(or, how tiring is it to play a wind instrument?)

- What is the longest that a note can be held?
(before the player turns blue)

- Is "bending" notes (slow gliding between notes)
possible? How is it done, and how difficult is it?
What is the right word for this? >>

M.P. -
here you go: I play trumpet, and have done so for about 5 years. I have many companions who have played various other wind instruments with me over the years.
thus, I can answer a few of your questions.

-vibrato is not very difficult. however, it requires a lot of practice, and is done by changing the embouchure (configuration of the muscles around the mouth while playing) while playing a note, sort of making your mouth muscles "flex" back and forth quickly when playing notes.

-players normally have to catch a breath.... in probably about half a second, usually less. this is because brass players don't usually have much time to breathe, unless over suspended rests (a few bar lines), thus the breaths must remain very quick. The trick, though, is not to take breaths over bar lines. The objective of a breath mark is to keep a sustained note going, and seem as if no breath were taken (the effect works very nicely when there is more than one player playing the note- thus one can take a breath while the other plays, and vice-versa). Brass instruments aren't very hard to play. they are quite strong and slightly heavier than woodwinds, they last longer and do note require constant reed replacement. however, cuts on the mouth and lips can cause problems, and you need to keep up your practice to retain tone quality and intonation.

-the longest a note can be played? hm.. well, I can, on a normal basis, play about 20 seconds at 120 tempo and not take any catch breaths.

-bending notes can be done more easily with a trombone, by pulling the slide in slowly into the note they want. however, it is possible with trumpets. the way to bend a note with a trumpet would be to find the note you want, which would require a certain placement of valves, and start pushing the valves in halfway. then start the note, and slowly push the valves in all the way. I saw this first done for a solo in Gershwin's Rhapsody in Blue, last year.

--hope this helps!--
-CTR

Re: Off-topic: Questions about wind instruments

Reply #2 –
Hi M.P.

I used to play trombone and oboe although I haven't played them for these several years.
Now I play a string instrument.
But I love this sort of arguments.

Vibrato can be made in some ways.
It depends on the kind of instruments and the kind of music.

The first way is to use the diaphragm. Loudness of the sound is modulated as it vibrates.
This is commonly used by oboes or flutes especially in classical music.

Next one is to use the throat. The air flow from the lung is quickly strengthen and weaken by the throat.
This is not considered very good way.

Another one is to change the embouchure as Corono said.
This is usually done by the movement of the jaw and is often used by saxophones and clarinets.
But clarinet players never use vibrato in classical musics.
This appears as the modulation of both loudness and pitch (just like AM and FM)

A particular way to the trombone is to use the slide.
You can imagine it easily I think.

Some players use a special way to breath called "circulating breath" -sorry I don't know the exact word in English- .
The player inspires through the nose while (s)he is making sound with the air kept inside the cheek.
This is most common for oboes, but contmporary players use this for trumpets or even for flutes.
They can play "eternally" with this method if they needn't be fed while playing.

Apart from this method, by noramal breathing, probabbly oboes can play the longest note.
Even "I" can play for one minute. And much more for experienced players.
This is because the oboe needs very little amount of air although the air pressure should be very strong.

Once I saw a trumpet player make bending notes like this.
-Push 1st or 3rd valve (or both)
-Slide down adjuster tubes of 1st or 3rd valves by using the ring or the lever attached to the tubes.

Thanks
Kaz

Re: Off-topic: Questions about wind instruments

Reply #3 –
Flutter-tongue is like "rolling your R's" as in: R-R-R-R-Ruffles® Have R-R-R-R-Ridges." It is not difficult for many people, impossible for others. One of the best trombone players I ever played with couldn't (can't?) flutter-tongue. Just one of those things.
Vibrato can be done by changing the embouchure, as Crono suggests, or it can be done with the diaphragm, a method that is preferred by most players that I have played with. On the trombone, the easiest way is to use the slide.
A tremolo can be the rapid repetition of a single pitch or chord, or a rapid alternation between two pitches (larger than a step) or two chords. I may have heard of it as a "small, fast change in volume up and down," but it does not appear in my dictionaries this way, so I can't confirm or deny.
-How much do players have to rest to catch their breath? (or, how tiring is it to play a wind instrument?) These are two different questions.  Well-trained players don't really have to "catch their breath," but opportunities to breathe must be included in the parts.  The frequency with which this occurs depends on the musical situation, and can be different for each player, but you may compare it to "How many words can speakers speak before having to rest to catch their breath?" The question of "how tiring" depends upon the player's training, health, the loudness/highness/quickess of the music, the frequency of rests, and a few other factors.
The longest that a note can be held would, again, depend on the player('s training), but about 20 seconds is typical. If the note were sufficiently quiet, I could hold it for 50-60 seconds (when I was in college...).
Bending notes is possible on all wind instruments, and is done by changing the embouchure, although trombones will use the slide.

Re: Off-topic: Questions about wind instruments

Reply #4 –
The term Kaz is searching for is circular breathing, which in my experience is most common for flutes and tubas (and of course, Kenny G). Oboes would not need this technique because, as Kaz points out, "the oboe needs very little amount of air although the air pressure should be very strong." I've known many oboe players who have had "too much air," and need places to expel the excess, rather than take in more.

Re: Off-topic: Questions about wind instruments

Reply #5 –
I'm a saxophone player of nearly 25 years, and also have been an school instrumental music teacher for over 10 years.  I hope I can shed some additional light on your questions.

Flutter tongue is a technique where the player rolls their tongue (similar to a German "r" sound) while blowing a note.  You generally see this only in contemporary or jazz music.  I rarely use this, but it is possible with most reed and brass instruments.  It is sometimes called a "growl" as well.

Vibrato is expected from most good wind instrumentalists, particularly in solo passages.  The major exception being clarinet, which is generally not played with a vibrato tone.  For most instruments, it is done by slight, quick adjustments to the embouchure, and is a technique that takes some practice.  Trombone players can also do a slide vibrato in many cases.

I'm not sure what you mean by small, fast changes in volume, but that wouldn't be called tremolo.  Tremolo is rapidly changing between two notes (similar to a trill, but with a wider spacing between tones).  The closest thing I can think of to what you might be looking for would be the use of something like a "laughing" tone.  You could do this by quick use of the diaphragm.  I would say that you would see this mostly in jazz or show music.  More gradual changes in volume would most often be called crescendo and decrescendo.

The amount of time needed between breaths varies among players, but you should expect wind instrumentalists to play several measures on one breath at moderate to faster tempos.  There are a very small number of players who can "circular breathe."  I believe saxophonist Kenny G once held a single note for over 40 minutes this way.  As a "non-circular breather," I've held a single note for nearly one minute on saxophone (and could probably go even longer on clarinet, but I've never checked).  Reed instrumentalists can generally hold a note longer on one breath than flute or brass players.  As far is playing a wind instrument being tiring, it can happen breathwise, but I usually get a tired embouchure before becoming short of breath in most literature.  When I was in college, and required to do a LOT more practicing, I could play for hours without too much fatigue.

Bending notes generally refers to staying on one pitch, and using the embouchure (or trombone slide) to go out of tune and back in (a jazz technique, for the most part).  Sliding between two pitches is called glissando.  It can be done on most wind instruments.  Crono gave you a good explanation for brass instruments, and for woodwinds, you can use a combination of bending/scooping technique and changing fingerings to get a similar effect.  The original Rhapsody in Blue orchestral score has a clarinet playing the huge glissando of over 2 octaves at the beginning.  I've heard some recordings where the clarinet glissando is so smooth, you would think the player somehow attached a small trombone slide to the instrument.

Sorry I've been typed so much, but I hope the information given is helpful.

Re: Off-topic: Questions about wind instruments

Reply #6 –
I thought growl is different from flutter.
My understanding is that growl is making voice while playing an instrument.

Re: Off-topic: Questions about wind instruments

Reply #7 –
Kaz-

You may be right, but I have heard people refer to flutter-tonguing as a growl.

Re: Off-topic: Questions about wind instruments

Reply #8 –
I am a clarinet player and here is my slant on MP's questions.

Flutter tounging: I do this by rolling an r at the front of my mouth.  My tounge vibrates at about 5Hz against the roof of my mouth.  It is easier with some notes than others - particularly difficult pitches are between (written) B to D within the stave (middle to fourth line) as these notes tend to "speak" more slowly than others.  If done properly it should sound like a string of notes played rapidly.  There is a high risk of getting a glug of saliva into the mouth piece which destroys the effect somewhat as well as being rather gross.

Growl: I do this by rolling an r at the back of my mouth, rather like gargling but with a tighter throat and with a loose emboucher - curiously this technique is easier in the range of notes that are more difficult to flutter toungue.  It's an interesting noise but there is not a lot of call for it.  The sound is - well, a growl.

Vibrato: I do this using a combination of varying breath pressure and emboucher tension and mouth cavity shape.  The technique is very difficult to describe but not very difficult to do - an analogy would be trying to describe how to whistle.  Not using vibrato on clarinet in the classical context is stated to be tbe current fashion. However, vibrato is used a lot more than many players will admit.  Jack Brymer has some very sensible things to say about vibrato - in summary if it sounds like it needs some vibrato, put some in.  Having said that, vibrato does tend to be used less often (more judiciously?) on the clarinet than on the oboe for example.  In non-classical contexts, vibrato is definitely de riguer.  The effect is a combination of fairly rapid (2 - 5Hz modulation) of pitch and volume and timbre.  It is quite common to start a long note "straight" and gradually introduce vibrato.  Listen to Sidney Becher for a particularly pronounced vibrato on clarinet - he gets even more on soprano sax.

Tremolo: I don't do this - must try though.

Catching my breath:  I can generally sneak a breath where I need one in about a quarter of a second.

Maximum note length: depends on the pitch and volume and what I have been playing immediately before.  After an extended forte passages it can be nice to have a little pant for 10 seconds or so before having to play again.  However, there are ways of faking it so that breaths don't get noticed.  The problem often comes not from "running out" of breath but of not being able to empty ones lungs sufficiently to get oxygen in when you do take a breath.  Thus there is sufficient gas in your lungs to make the instrument work but it is mainly CO2 and the physiological reaction is an intense desire to expel it.  In such cases I "hiss" around the sides of the mouthpiece.

Bending notes:  Definitely possible.  I do this by changing the emboucher tension and modifying the shape of my mouth cavity.  How much bend is possible on a particular note depends on the pitch.  Some notes are very easy to bend (= difficult to keep in tune!) others are not.  Bending down is much easier than bending up.  Jazz style music uses a number of standard types of bend including the lip up, the lip down and the fall off - each of these has a standard(ish) notation.  Large smooth changes in pitch (glissando) are also possible.  Gliss up is MUCH easire than gliss down.  In fact I don't think I can do gliss down  must try.  I do a gliss up using a combination of note bend as described above plus finger "smearing" i.e. slowly uncovering note holes.  The difficult bit is trying to join various registers together.  An example of an octave gliss comes in the Arty Shaw clarinet concerto.  This goes up one octave starting from G on top of the treble stave.  This starts in the clarion register and ends in the altissimo register.  I start by fingering that G (three fingers of the left hand) and then slide those fingers off by rotating my left hand until I am playing the C above the treble stave (no fingers down).  Then I put all my fingers except my left first finger (two left and three right) down again and lip down to get another C of the same pitch in the altissimo register.  Then I slide my right hand fingers off and then left hand fingers off until I have no fingers covering the holes and with a bit of lipping down, I get a reasonable top G. It's really a lot easier to do than to write about.

For more information on what can and can't or shouldn't be done on the clarinet I recommend Jack Brymers book on the clarinet in the Yehudi Menhuin Guide Series.  There are other similar monographs on other instruments in the series.  However, I can only vouch for the usefulness of the one on the Clarinet.

HTH

Stephen

Re: Off-topic: Questions about wind instruments

Reply #9 –
Wow, great replies! Thank you Crono, Kaz, Minnie van Driver, Otto Monopoeia, chris, and Stephen Randall. If anyone else has any more input, please add - I can use as much education as possible.

Some more questions:

- What is this bending/scooping technique?
- Is glissando like a fast scale, or is it "smoother"?
- Do wind instruments have as wide a range in dynamics as strings or the piano? (Can a French Horn, Bassoon, or Piccolo play ppp ?)

Thanks again :-)
M.P.

Re: Off-topic: Questions about wind instruments

Reply #10 –
“Some writers have preferred to restrict the meaning of glissando to the motion in which discrete pitches are heard [“a fast scale”], reserving portamento for continuous variation in pitch [the smooth one], but musical practice is not consistent in this respect.”
- Harvard Dictionary of Music ©1986
All wind instruments are capable of playing ppp, pppp, or even ppppp under some conditions, as well as fff, ffff, and fffff, for the brass (and piccolo, or clarinets in the high register.  When saxes are played this loudly (yes, them, too), they usually sound pretty gross, although the same could be said of the brass in the wrong hands...

Re: Off-topic: Questions about wind instruments

Reply #11 –
Duration of notes will also depend on the instrument and its accessories.  A big instrument takes more wind to make a sound than a small one.  Back pressure affects it too, an oboe, with a small air passage, offers natural resistance.  A large mouthpieced reed instrument doesn't, nor, I imagine, would a flute, where you blow over the mouthpiece, rather than into it.

Dynamics affect duration too, because playing louder takes more air than playing softly.

I agree growling is more from the throat. I have tried it on clarinet and sax without much success.  You hum while you play.  Again, Ellington's stars Bubber Miley, Tricky Sam Nanton and Cootie Williams employed growling brass as their trademark, particularly in the early years of Ellington's 50 years as a band leader.  They could almost make their horns speak words.  A good example of Cootie is his On The Street Where You Live from Cootie Williams In Hi-Fi (1958), part of which you can hear by searching for him on www.cdnow.com (this album is rather poor pandering to the pop market of the day, but this song shows good examples of his artistry).

A nice example of tasteful clarinet vibrato is Barney Bigard in his small group recording of Lament for Javanette, recorded in late 1940 with members of Ellington's band.  This piece also features some quiet valve trombone vibrato by Juan Tizol, co-creator of Caravan.  Bigard and the same group also recorded A Lull at Dawn, which displays his vibrato and note bending in both chalumeau and clarion ranges.  You can hear one minute clips of Lament and Lull if you search for the song titles on www.CDNOW.com, and chose the 1940-1941 album (it's the Chronological Classics Duke Ellington 1940-1941 CD). Actually, listen to the first 4 tracks, so you'll hear some of the ornamental trilling as well.

Nice note bending by alto sax star Johnny Hodges can be heard in On The Sunny Side Of The Street, track 12 of Duke Ellington : Live At The Blue Note, which you can listen to on CDNow.

Circular breathing on the bari can be heard at the end of many of the 1950's Duke Ellington recordings of Harry Carney's bari solo for Sophisticated Lady.  I wouldn't expect the various soundclips online to feature them, though, because they generally seem to post only the first part of a song to the websites.  Anyway, Harry's crowdpleaser was to sustain a note of his solo forever while Duke would play chorus after chorus in behind him, at which time Harry would, without additonal breathing, play a fall to the bottom of the sax range.

On a clarinet, provided you're not a purist, you can alter the pitch downward quite considerably just with your lip.  I can go down at least a full tone, I think.  Comes from playing on various reed instruments requiring differing embouchures.  Going up generally requires some lipping and some fingerwork - the Rhapsody in Blue gliss is not difficult, as long as you slide your fingers off each tone hole as you ascend.

Dynamnics on reed instruments cover the full range, although a forte on a clarinet will alway be quieter than a forte on a brass instrument.  Low range fortes on saxophones tend to sound biting or like honking; quiet notes at the low end are not as easy unless you stay in practice.

The glissando issue is interesting.  On an instrument which produces sound by striking something (a piano for instance), you cannot play a glissando as I understand it to be.  The definition cited in Reply 10 must have been written by a piano player.  On the other hand, wind instruments that vary in pitch depending on how far the space above an open tone hole is, can do very effective constant variations in pitch.  A clarinet is a great example of this - if you slide your finger off the tone hole, the note gradually changes as the hole gets bigger.  On a sax, toneholes are closed by keypads, so you can't slide off the tonehole, but you can open it gradually.  But pitch will vary depending on how far open the hole is, and that is somewhat controllable.

I've written enough for now.  Good luck.

covered with keypads.  piano, you cannot do a slur so you can't

Re: Off-topic: Questions about wind instruments

Reply #12 –
>> The definition cited in Reply 10 must have been written by a piano player.
If you are referring to the writer of Reply 10, sorry to disappoint.  I am a wind player.  If you are referring to the writer of the definition, can’t help ya there. Historically, glissando is capable on the piano and the harp, as well as many other instruments.  Over time, terminology changes, usually through a misunderstanding of some sort.  The “error” becomes entrenched in “the people’s vocabulary” until it is believed to be true.  So, historically speaking, “Lassus Trombone” is full of portamentos, not glissandos.

Re: Off-topic: Questions about wind instruments

Reply #13 –
Hi Minnie,
I wonder if it's then a matter of whether the term is being used in a classical or a jazz context?  Rhapsody in Blue's clarinet line is never, so far as I know, referred to as anything other than a glissando, even if it is technically a portamento.

The on-line "Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia" says

"A glissando (plural: glissandi) is a musical term that refers to either a continuous sliding from one pitch to another (a "true" glissando), or an incidental scale played while moving from one melodic note to another (an "effective" glissando).

Musical instruments with continuously variable pitch can effect a true glissando over a substantial range. These include unfretted stringed instruments (such as the violin and some bass guitars), stringed instruments with a way of stretching the strings (such as a guitar with a [whammy bar]?), wind instruments without valves or stops (such as the trombone or [slide whistle]?), synthesizers, the human voice, and the [water organ]?.

True glissandi can be produced to at least a limited extent on most instruments; for example, fretted stringed instruments (such as the guitar or mandolin) can effect a glissando of up to a minor third (three semitones) by pushing the string across the fingerboard. Brass and wind instruments such as the flute or trumpet can effect a similarly limited glissando by altering the breath pressure. Tunable percussion instruments such as the drum or conga? can effect small glissandi by applying or releasing pressure on the head while striking.

On some instruments, a bending of the tone or continuous sliding is not possible (e.g., piano, harp) As a substitute, the player can play a number of adjacent notes in rapid succession, so that the audible result somewhat resembles a true glissando. For example, on a piano, the player can slide his thumbnail across the white or black keys, producing either a C major scale or a C# major pentatonic (or their relative natural minor scales). On a harp, the player can slide his finger up or down the strings, quickly playing the separate notes. Wind, brass and fretted stringed instrument players can effect an extremely rapid chromatic scale, giving the same effect. These latter techniques are commonly referred to as glissandi in scores and sheet music, although technically they are only "effective" glissandi."

The HANDBOOK FOR ACOUSTIC ECOLOGY 2nd edition, accessed online through Simon Fraser University's site, says merely
"GLISSANDO  A sound whose PITCH varies continuously in time over a given range, such as a siren or the sound of a bowed or plucked string whose length is changing."

On the other hand, the University of Vermont's site has this definition:
"A rapid ascending or descending of the scale. If a glissando is performed on a piano or harp, not every semitone is played, because the finger is drawn across only the white keys in the case of the piano, or the scale available in the case of the harp. If, however, a glissando is performed on a stringed instrument such as a violin, each semitone would be sounded as the finger is either slid up or down the length of a string, or fingering each note separately. A glissando is also possible on wind instruments, however, each note must be fingered separately with the notable exception of the trombone."

Lilypond.org's glossary has it simply:
"glissando ES: glissando, I: glissando, F: glissando, D: Glissando, NL: glissando, DK: glissando, S: glissando, N: glissando.    Letting the pitch slide fluently from one note to the other. "

http://www.pacificsites.com/~chrisk/edutech/frames/glissndo.htm perhaps sums it all up the best:

"The word, Glissando, is derived from the French word "glisser", meaning 'to slide'. In your musical score, you may see the abbreviation 'gliss.'.
A number of instruments may be asked to perform glissandos. The glissando is a continuous sliding movement from one pitch to another. On the piano, the thumb nail is used to slide across the white or black keys. On the harp, the thumb or finger is drawn across the strings. The effect in both cases is a rapid succession of discrete pitches.

When a glissando is performed on violins and wind instruments, the effect is a continuous variation in pitch."

All I can conclude from this is that the expression means what it means to whoever is using it at the time, and the common modern usage is somewhat corrupt.  At least it doesn't mean playing a whole tone scale in whole notes in common time at a very slow tempo (grin).  Thanks for the feedback, it was fun to explore the web for this.  I stopped on page 4 of the Google.com hits - there were over 21,000 hits.

Did you enjoy the various effects in the Ellington sound clips?
David
 

Re: Off-topic: Questions about wind instruments

Reply #14 –
I AM 68 YRS OLD AND TOOK UP THE FLUTE FOR THERAPY AFTER A STROKE 5 YEARS AND NOW PLAY IN AN ORCHESTRA OF SENIOR CITIZENS. WE DO ABOUT 35 CONCERTS A YEAR AM I'M HAVING A BALL. IT'S HARD WORK TO BE "TALENTED" BUT THR REWARDS A GREAT SO PICK A WIND INSTRUMENT AND GO FOR IT.