Forums => General Discussion => Topic started by: ItmightbeJB on 2018-06-26 02:56 am
Title: Left hand in treble clef
Post by: ItmightbeJB on 2018-06-26 02:56 am
I'm making a midi file of The Lords Prayer written in 12/8 time. Some of the bass clef notes extend into the treble clef but when I put them into the treble clef it messes up the timing so the bar lines aren't aligned between staffs. I've tried making them grace notes but there's till the alignment problem. Is there a fix for this?
Title: Re: Left hand in treble clef
Post by: Warren Porter on 2018-06-26 03:50 am
I think in step three of the import process you can choose what notes go into the treble clef and which go to the base clef. HTH
Title: Re: Left hand in treble clef
Post by: hmmueller on 2018-06-26 04:55 am
I'm making a midi file of The Lords Prayer written in 12/8 time. Some of the bass clef notes extend into the treble clef but when I put them into the treble clef it messes up the timing so the bar lines aren't aligned between staffs. I've tried making them grace notes but there's till the alignment problem. Is there a fix for this?
If I understand you correctly, you do not simply want to write a treble clef into the left hand (lower) system - then, it would be easy. But you want the notes to go into the right hand (upper) system, with "nothing" in the left hand system.
The best method is to use layered staffs - I have added a short example.
You need many invisible rests in the layered staff for the "upper left hand";
You need a few invisible rests in the lower left hand staff
H.M.
(@Warren Porter: I don't think @ItmightbeJB wants to import a MIDI ...)
Title: Re: Left hand in treble clef
Post by: Lawrie Pardy on 2018-06-26 05:29 am
This is a way to do this kind of thing WITHOUT layering. Please note that layering is an incredibly useful feature and I'm absolutely NOT criticising it. It's just that sometimes I find it attractive to avoid layering.
In this example (it's still a work in progress) there are all kinds of things to look for (headless muted whole grace notes, overlayed notes between staves, hidden ledger lines, hidden rests in rest chords, hidden rests NOT in rest chords etc.)... Have fun finding them all ;)
This is an excerpt. I'm actually working on a concert band arrangement of the piece (Elgar's Salut D'Amour) and ultimately won't use the piano part at all.
It depends heavily on the spacing between the piano staves not being changed, unless you want to re-do a whole bunch of things :)
This file is built using my SwingDings font suite - if you don't have it installed the default fonts should be OK (I hope)
Hopefully you'll find some useful ideas. Bear in mind - ALL imported MIDI's need to be edited to make them presentable, some more than others.
Title: Re: Left hand in treble clef
Post by: ItmightbeJB on 2018-06-26 06:40 am
Can I just move the high left hand notes from the treble clef back to the bass clef then change octave? If so how do I change the octave just for a chosen group of notes?
Title: Re: Left hand in treble clef
Post by: hmmueller on 2018-06-26 07:33 am
Why don't you just do the simplest thing - change the clef for the left hand? - see attachment "LeftHandWithClefChange.nwctxt".
Or - if you really want to do an octave shift - use an octave-shifting clef? - see attachment "LeftHandWithOctaveChange.nwctxt".
Or - if you really really do not want to change clefs (but why??) - use an instrument change to move the transposition up one octave? - see attachment "LeftHandWithTranspositionChange.nwctxt". This is certainly the worst option, as there is no notation that shows the shifting pitch.
Or - if you want an octave shift with accompanying notation - use the Ottavamatic.ms plugin? - see attachment "LeftHandWithOttavamatic.nwctxt".
Or, finally - if you just want to create a MIDI, so notation quality is not important - just write the notes with many leger lines? - see attachment "LeftHandWithManyLegerLines.nwctxt".
H.M.
Title: Re: Left hand in treble clef
Post by: Lawrie Pardy on 2018-06-26 02:40 pm
Can I just move the high left hand notes from the treble clef back to the bass clef then change octave? If so how do I change the octave just for a chosen group of notes?
Perhaps an visual example of what you're trying to achieve would be easier than us trying to interpret what you're asking. Sometimes words get in the way.
Title: Re: Left hand in treble clef
Post by: ItmightbeJB on 2018-06-26 09:46 pm
I've attached the whole file since I'm not very far along with it anyway. I had to make the staff very high to fit all these notes into the bass clef. On the sheet music I'm copying the 3rd trio of eighth notes in measure #1 is scored into the treble clef to be played with the right hand. But when I originally wrote them that way the note durations in the treble clef counted against the measure. So I then thought I would be clever and just make them grace notes. But then the ties of the whole notes on measures 1 and 2 tied to the grace notes as slurs. I don't think I did a good job explaining this and I am grateful for your help.
I've attached the whole file since I'm not very far along with it anyway. I had to make the staff very high to fit all these notes into the bass clef. On the sheet music I'm copying the 3rd trio of eighth notes in measure #1 is scored into the treble clef to be played with the right hand. But when I originally wrote them that way the note durations in the treble clef counted against the measure. So I then thought I would be clever and just make them grace notes. But then the ties of the whole notes on measures 1 and 2 tied to the grace notes as slurs. I don't think I did a good job explaining this and I am grateful for your help.
"By all means marry. If you get a good wife you'll be happy. If you get a bad wife you'll become a philosopher." Socrates
Title: Re: Left hand in treble clef
Post by: ItmightbeJB on 2018-06-27 01:10 am
Well this isn't what I was trying to do at all...….. good grief!
Title: Re: Left hand in treble clef
Post by: hmmueller on 2018-06-27 06:18 am
Well, you did not give us an example - e.g. a scan, or quick smartphone photo - of what you're trying to achieve (as Lawrie asked), but only of the score that did not achieve it - that's not really helpful for us.
So let me ask: Did you look at my 5 suggestions above? Did you try a few of them? Which one is the one that you like most, or that solves your problem?
Because I'm good-hearted (or not? :D), I'll even put four of my five suggestions into your score: See attachment - but now, it's finally up to you to decide.
And still, there is my suggestion of layered scores to have these higher notes in the right hand (i.e., top) system. You write that in your original, these notes are "... scored into the treble clef to be played with the right hand" - but you do not tell us the important information: Are they put
into the right hand (i.e., top) system (which would explain your positioning troubles): a layered staff does help hereif the right hand also plays other things; or you can simply use invisble rests and (muted) notes if the right hand plays only these notes (see the second attachment);
or in the left hand (i.e., bottom) system (as in your example score): then a treble clef in the left hand system, as in my LeftHandWithClefChange.nwctxt example, solves the problem (I get the feeling that you do not know that it is ok to put a treble clef in the left hand system - maybe you should look at a few more piano scores to see what is common).
H.M.
Title: Re: Left hand in treble clef
Post by: Lawrie Pardy on 2018-06-27 09:48 pm
A small alternative to H.M.'s 2nd suggestion...
Title: Re: Left hand in treble clef
Post by: ItmightbeJB on 2018-06-27 11:46 pm
Ok I hope this works. I took a picture of the screen. As you can (hopefully) see the third trio of eighth notes are now in the bass staff where I had to put them so as not to fubar the durations in the treble staff. I think I'll try the treble clef in the bass staff thing though, that sounds doable.
Title: Re: Left hand in treble clef
Post by: Lawrie Pardy on 2018-06-28 05:47 am