NoteWorthy Composer Forum

Forums => General Discussion => Topic started by: Lawrie Pardy on 2017-07-09 10:12 pm

Title: Problem with online object sync.
Post by: Lawrie Pardy on 2017-07-09 10:12 pm
Hi people - is anyone else having trouble with the online object sync?

You know, the <Ctrl+J>, Online Synch... (button) - firewall/AV warning - OK process
Currently results in "Unable to connect" for me.

Is the sync. site misbehaving, or have I suddenly developed a problem that I haven't had before?

Title: Re: Problem with online object sync.
Post by: Lawrie Pardy on 2017-07-10 12:21 am
Bit more followup. 

First I reinstalled Beta 10, then 9 then back to 11; testing updates each time.  They all failed. 
Then I did a packet trace while attempting the update and this is the entire conversation that was captured (with IP addresses changed to "ME" and "NWC"):

Pkt No.      Time             Source       Dest.       Prot.       Info
58              8.582927      Me              NWC      TCP        52770 > https [SYN] Seq=0 Win=65535 Len=0 MSS=1260 SACK_PERM=1

59              8.828264      NWC          Me          TCP        https > 52770 [SYN, ACK] Seq=0 Ack=1 Win=29200 Len=0 MSS=1452 SACK_PERM=1

60              8.828364      Me              NWC      TCP        52770 > https [ACK] Seq=1 Ack=1 Win=65535 Len=0

61              8.829219      Me              NWC      TLSv1    Client Hello

65              9.074752      NWC          Me          TCP        https > 52770 [ACK] Seq=1 Ack=78 Win=29200 Len=0

66              9.074812      NWC          Me          TLSv1    Alert (Level: Fatal, Description: Handshake Failure)

67              9.074906      NWC          Me          TCP        https > 52770 [FIN, ACK] Seq=8 Ack=78 Win=29200 Len=0

68              9.074958      Me              NWC      TCP       52770 > https [ACK] Seq=78 Ack=9 Win=65528 Len=0

69              9.075350      Me              NWC      TCP       52770 > https [FIN, ACK] Seq=78 Ack=9 Win=65528 Len=0

71              9.321393       NWC          Me          TCP       https > 52770 [ACK] Seq=9 Ack=79 Win=29200 Len=0

It's quite a while since I did any packet level analysis, and even then I wasn't great at it, but it seems to me that the important parts are pkts 61, 65, 66, 67 and 68 where I send an encryption protocol "Hello"(61), NWC ACKnowledges it (65) and then NWC tells me there was a handshake failure (66), followed up by a conversation FINish (67) which finally I ACKnowledge (68).

My initial thought was that there is something wrong with the encryption at my end, BUT, my system (actually, everyone's system) uses TLS for quite a number of things, including the HTTPS: protocol used for this forum so that sends some doubts into my thinking.

Sooo, does NWC do it's own TLS encryption or does it use what's native to the PC?  OR, is there a TLS problem on the update site?

Actually, all I really want is for it to be fixed - I have seriously retired from IT and have no desire to get stuck back into the mire of it - I "just wanna have fun"...

If no one else if having a problem then I need to put my IT hat back on ( >:( ), otherwise Eric may have something to check...
Title: Re: Problem with online object sync.
Post by: NoteWorthy Online on 2017-07-10 12:37 am
NWC uses built-in methods provided by a system DLL: winhttp.dll
Title: Re: Problem with online object sync.
Post by: NoteWorthy Online on 2017-07-10 12:45 am
I am currently on a Chromebook with Crouton/WINE, connected via satellite, and the Manage Objects interface still worked for me (although it took almost 15 minutes to complete the scan).
Title: Re: Problem with online object sync.
Post by: Lawrie Pardy on 2017-07-10 05:44 am
Looks like I need to check things at my end some more :(
Title: Re: Problem with online object sync.
Post by: Lloyd on 2017-07-10 07:01 am
Uhmmm same problem for me... it says "Unable to connect"

I'm almost sure I've always been able to sync objects in NWC v2.75a with the same system config as I have right now... in fact I can't remember the last time I configured the firewall, antivirus or anything ::) .

I've re-intalled v2.75 and it seems to work, but not with any beta of the v2.75a (I've tested from beta 001 to beta 011...)
I remember I scripted "PedalLine.fso" with beta 10 installed on my system and almost sure that then online sync worked well for me...
Title: Re: Problem with online object sync.
Post by: Lawrie Pardy on 2017-07-10 11:01 am
Ahhhh, thanks Lloyd - that makes me feel so much better - I couldn't find ANYTHING with my system that might be the cause and it's been getting frustrating.  To know you're having the same problems means that I may not have the cause actually in my system.

So, in order to help figure things out:
I've tested from 2 XP PC's - both had the problem.  I then tried a 2k3 server that I use for terminal services within my network and it worked fine.  Interestingly, 2k3 server is pretty much the XP version of Windows server.

Now, with that in mind, what version of Windows are you using?

Thanks.
Title: Re: Problem with online object sync.
Post by: Lloyd on 2017-07-10 11:30 am
I'm now working with XP (x86)... I know it's a little outdated OS, but I usually use it only for net, mail and play ( games :P )
I have a Win7 (x64) system for more serious work, but this one have no connection, so I can't test the online sync function (I update NWC manually in this system).

I hope this will help to find a solution  :))
Title: Re: Problem with online object sync.
Post by: Francis Beaumier on 2017-07-10 01:01 pm
Just a guess, but I think XP probably stopped getting the list of updated certificate authorities awhile ago. If NWS recently updated their certificates for the sever in question, perhaps XP doesn't trust it? I'm several hundred miles from my install of NWC at the moment, so I'm afraid I can't test.
Title: Re: Problem with online object sync.
Post by: William Ashworth on 2017-07-10 01:52 pm
I'm having no trouble in Win 8.1. I suspect Francis hit the nail on the proverbial head. XP is no longer a Microsoft-supported system. Might be a certificate problem; might be something about a recent upgrade to winhttp.dll that makes it incompatible with XP. Backward compatibility beyond Vista may no longer be possible.
Title: Re: Problem with online object sync.
Post by: Lawrie Pardy on 2017-07-10 02:03 pm
Hi guys, nice thought but I'm having no trouble reaching this website (and many others) using https (TLS encryption) from the SAME machine that is having the update problems.

Bit more info:
Inspired by Lloyds test (going back to 2.75) I got the same results as him - connected just fine.

Reinstall 2.75a beta and can't connect again...  Not sure what's going on, but I suspect it is related to 2.75a (and possibly in conjunction with XP) rather than simply my machine.

I REALLY don't want to "upgrade" this box to Win7 or later - besides have a hate relationship with later versions of windoze, it simply isn't powerful enough to cope, yet it runs XP just fine.
Title: Re: Problem with online object sync.
Post by: Lloyd on 2017-07-10 02:06 pm
But the online sync functions still work fine in NWC v2.75 on my system (WinXP x86), I've tested this morning and it scanned all plugins correctly... it only happens to me (to us?) with NWC v2.75a Beta versions, so maybe the point is not there... I mean, if there's a problem with server certificates it would always happen with every version of NWC running under WinXP... am I right? ::)
Title: Re: Problem with online object sync.
Post by: Lloyd on 2017-07-10 02:10 pm
Quote
I suspect it is related to 2.75a (and possibly in conjunction with XP)
I'll go a little beyond, I suspect something occured when v2.75a Beta 011 were installed. I'm almost sure everything worked fine for me before this (when I was working with Beta 010)... as I said, I scripted "PedalLine.fso" using Beta 010 and I'm almost sure it updated everything without problems at this time.
Title: Re: Problem with online object sync.
Post by: William Ashworth on 2017-07-10 02:17 pm
Not a certificate problem, then. I'd still suspect an upgrade incompatibility. If I understand the problem correctly, it didn't show up until quite recently. That means that the 2.75a betas were working earlier. Now they aren't. What changed? If not anything on local machines, and not anything in the program (Eric was pretty clear on that), then it has to be in something the program calls.
Title: Re: Problem with online object sync.
Post by: NoteWorthy Support on 2017-07-10 02:38 pm
The ssl cert has not been changed, but the api server was upgraded in the last 30 days. It would not be surprising if XP has issue with something new around openssh or apache config. We will look into it.
Title: Re: Problem with online object sync.
Post by: Lawrie Pardy on 2017-07-10 02:46 pm
The ssl cert has not been changed, but the api server was upgraded in the last 30 days. It would not be surprising if XP has issue with something new around openssh or apache config. We will look into it.
Thanks Eric.
A couple of questions;
a) Would this not affect 2.75 as well?

b) I also note that my trace revealed that TLS-V1 is what is being used, why not V2?  Not that I'm complaining, but I'm curious, V2 has been around for years.

Aahhh, could it be that while 2.75a is using TLS-v1, the server is expecting TLS-v2?  But then, that would suggest 2.75, though older, is using TLS-v2.  Maybe I should stop thinking about this now. ;)
Title: Re: Problem with online object sync.
Post by: NoteWorthy Online on 2017-07-10 05:31 pm
a) Would this not affect 2.75 as well?

Yes. I thought perhaps you were getting a cached copy.

The 2.75a mechanism is essentially the same as 2.75, but there might be a bug in 2.75a causing a Windows XP issue. I won't have access to XP until next week, but will investigate it then.
Title: Re: Problem with online object sync.
Post by: Flurmy on 2017-07-10 05:36 pm
A-ha!
I had no time to investigate, but I met the very same problem some days ago with XP.
I just tried now: no problem with windows 7.
Title: Re: Problem with online object sync.
Post by: Lawrie Pardy on 2017-07-11 12:36 am
Hi Eric,
Something curious...
Given my 2k3 server is OK I thought I'd the check versions of "winhttp.dll" which you mentioned above as being the source of the encryption methods.

The interesting part is that while there is a copy of this file in the system32 directory of my XP machine, there is NO COPY of this file in the same location on the 2k3 box.  There are, however, 4 different versions - none of which match the XP one, in subdirectories of \Windows\WinSxS.

OK - just took some time to run Process Explorer from Sysinternals.
The version of winhttp.dll being used by the 2k3 server is: 5.2.3790.4929 (srv03_sp2_qfe.111104-0342) - dated 8th November 2011 - size 365,568 bytes

The one from my XP box is: 5.1.2600.6175 (xpsp_sp3_gdr.111116-1647) - dated 17th November 2011 - size 354,816 bytes

Different dates, versions and sizes - one works and the other doesn't - if I was feeling adventurous I might try copying the functioning one from the 2k3 server to my XP box, but I'm not feeling adventurous...

Hopefully this will provide some useful data to work with.
Title: Re: Problem with online object sync.
Post by: Flurmy on 2017-07-11 05:50 pm
Mine is exactly the same as Lawrie's:  5.1.2600.6175.
Title: Re: Problem with online object sync.
Post by: NoteWorthy Online on 2017-07-15 05:34 pm
the api server was upgraded in the last 30 days. It would not be surprising if XP has issue with something new

This. In my tests, all versions of the NWC user object scan were failing on Windows XP.

I have reconfigured the server, and the user object scan seems to work again, at least for now. Going forward, Windows XP users are in for a rough ride as industry requirements will make it harder and harder to connect.
Title: Re: Problem with online object sync.
Post by: Rick G. on 2017-07-15 07:22 pm
I would suggest a failsafe:
Add a zip file to   NoteWorthy Composer Downloads (https://noteworthycomposer.com/info/download.htm)
If the zip file is large, an option to get just the last three months worth of updates might be useful.

In NWC and the viewer where you have 'Online Sync ...', add an option for Zip Sync ...'

An offline user could go to a public library or use a tablet or cell phone to get the zip file.
Worst case, the user would need to copy the zip to a thumb drive.
Title: Re: Problem with online object sync.
Post by: Lawrie Pardy on 2017-07-15 10:21 pm
Ahh, thanks Eric.

I'm a little disappointed with the prognosis though, versions of windoze past XP do not fill me with any confidence...
Title: Re: Problem with online object sync.
Post by: Lloyd on 2017-07-16 12:08 pm
Thanks a lot Eric!!
Title: Re: Problem with online object sync.
Post by: hmmueller on 2017-07-16 01:31 pm
... versions of windoze past XP do not fill me with any confidence...
I have used NWC and Reaper, mainly with rgc:audio sfz player for sounds, on Windows 7 heavily, and use all these now on Windows 8.1 Enterprise daily, and I do not have any problems. I "am", of course, only a "single data point", but maybe it gives you a little more confidence...

H.M.
Title: Re: Problem with online object sync.
Post by: William Ashworth on 2017-07-16 02:30 pm
I kinda like Win 8.1. I'm dreading the day MS forces us all onto Win 10, though. I installed it, uninstalled it after three days, and now have a piece of software on my machine whose only purpose is to prevent the installation of 10. Fine for now. But when my current laptop wears out....
Title: Re: Problem with online object sync.
Post by: Lawrie Pardy on 2017-07-16 02:54 pm
<snip> ...but maybe it gives you a little more confidence...
Thanks for the thought, but as a (retired) IT person I have a particular aversion to the direction m$ are taking with all versions of windoze from Vista onwards.

I look beyond the immediate changes to so-called security, reliability and speed and see a much bigger and scarier picture.

Put simply, IMHO, NONE of the major tech companies are to be trusted.
Title: Re: Problem with online object sync.
Post by: hmmueller on 2017-07-16 02:59 pm
... as a (retired) IT person I have a particular aversion to the direction m$ are taking with all versions of windoze from Vista onwards.
I look beyond the immediate changes to so-called security, reliability and speed and see a much bigger and scarier picture.
Put simply, IMHO, NONE of the major tech companies are to be trusted.

Well, I can understand these sentiments, as a non-retired IT person in a company that has - I think - a Gold partner status or something like that with MS, using only their platforms. Well, I get paid for that, and I am used to it. On these grand questions, I cannot - therefore and at all - give you more confidence. I only wanted to say that, right now, for me, on the whole, Win 8.1 does the work it's supposed to do ...

H.M.