NoteWorthy Composer Forum

Forums => General Discussion => Topic started by: Rosemac on 2007-04-26 06:06 pm

Title: Producing a "jazzy" feel
Post by: Rosemac on 2007-04-26 06:06 pm
When writing in simple time, is it possible to give quavers a "triplet" feel?  I tried to insert the triplet icon over highlighted quavers, but nothing would happen.  Is there any way to produce the "jazzy" feel just writing quavers?  Rosemac
Title: Re: Producing a "jazzy" feel
Post by: MusicJohn on 2007-04-26 07:47 pm
   Hi, Rosemac.

   You ask if there's any way to produce the "jazzy" feel just writing quavers.  I don't think so - unless you're using a sexy piece of software like Sibelius - but in Noteworthy you can get nearly the right sort of effect by taking your quaver pairs, turning the first one into a crotchet, and then tripletising the crotchet/quaver combination.

   MusicJohn, 26/Apr/07
 
Title: Re: Producing a "jazzy" feel
Post by: K.A.T. on 2007-04-26 10:04 pm
Take a look at this:
https://forum.noteworthycomposer.com/?topic=2335.msg12893#msg12893
Title: Re: Producing a "jazzy" feel
Post by: Lawrie Pardy on 2007-04-26 10:26 pm
G'day Rosemac,
there are several tips and threads devoted to this.

It's really fairly simple to "swing" your quavers.

The basic requirement is to change the tempo every quaver.  For some time there was a technique in use that used tempo MPC's and required some calculation to get right, then Kevin (K.A.T.) shared his method with us - no more MPC's or calcultaion necessary...

The link he refers you to in the mesage above will take you to his explanation.  Don't forget that an "eighth" = a quaver and a "quarter" = a crotchet.

The tempo marks and quaver rests are placed in a bar on it's own staff, usually hidden once the work is complete, with enough local repeats to last the whole song, OR, if there is a need for a tempo change or to have some notes played straight, every bar filled in (love copy and paste) appropriately or even combinations of the 2 - depends on how you want to figure it out.
Title: Re: Producing a "jazzy" feel
Post by: jfb-from-germany on 2020-01-08 10:03 am
Hi everybody,

I just wondered if anybody could tell me how to insert a grafic indication in the score, that tells the reading musician that the eight notes should be "swinged". I attached two grafics to show what I would like to insert in my score...

Thanks in advance,
Jan-Frerk Burmester

P.S.: I tried to start a new topic, but I didn't know how to do... :-(
Title: Re: Producing a "jazzy" feel
Post by: Lawrie Pardy on 2020-01-08 10:25 am
Hi everybody,

I just wondered if anybody could tell me how to insert a grafic indication in the score, that tells the reading musician that the eight notes should be "swinged". I attached two grafics to show what I would like to insert in my score...

Thanks in advance,
Jan-Frerk Burmester

P.S.: I tried to start a new topic, but I didn't know how to do... :-(
Hi Jan-Frerk,
the easiest way is to install a font that includes that symbol as one of the glyphs within it.  This way you can create a text object using that font and insert the character.

One set of fonts that include a suitable character are my own *Dings suites.  SwingDings, MusikDingsSans and MusikDingsSerif.  These are part of the "Pardy Pack" available from the Noteworthy main web site, OR via the Scriptorium.  The easiest way to install is using the Pardy Pack installer from here:
https://noteworthycomposer.com/uc/pardypack/index.htm

Title: Re: Producing a "jazzy" feel
Post by: jfb-from-germany on 2020-01-08 10:58 am
Hi Lawrie,

thanks for your quick response! This will surely help a lot, at least for those songs that only need one "swing" symbol at the beginning. But as far as I can see now, it isn't possible to produce the second of my attached examples (the one for the straight eight notes) with your fonts. Or am I mistaken?

For there are songs in which you have several changes between straight and swinged eight notes (as f.ex. in the song "Coldest Water" by Walking On Cars, which I'm arranging at the moment)...

Jan-Frerk Burmester
Title: Re: Producing a "jazzy" feel
Post by: Bart on 2020-01-08 11:06 am
Jan-Frerk,

Someone in this forum once pointed me to a simple and effective solution that worked for me: grace notes

(Muted) grace notes (without ledger lines and some extra note spacing) let me "make" exactly what I needed, only the equal sign needs some special attention.

Code: [Select · Download]
!NoteWorthyComposerClip(2.751,Single)
|Clef|Type:Treble
|Key|Signature:F#,C#|Tonic:D
|Note|Dur:8th,Grace|Pos:10|Opts:Stem=Up,Beam=First,NoLegerLines
|Note|Dur:8th,Grace|Pos:10|Opts:Stem=Up,Beam=End,NoLegerLines
|Note|Dur:4th,Triplet=First,Grace|Pos:10|Opts:XNoteSpace=3,NoLegerLines
|Note|Dur:8th,Triplet=End,Grace|Pos:10|Opts:NoLegerLines
|Note|Dur:8th|Pos:-1
|Note|Dur:8th|Pos:-2
|Note|Dur:8th|Pos:-4
|Note|Dur:8th|Pos:-3
!NoteWorthyComposerClip-End

Bart
Title: Re: Producing a "jazzy" feel
Post by: hmmueller on 2020-01-08 11:32 am
Here is my grace note experiment/crutch - getting the spacing right is not really nice ...

H.M.
Title: Re: Producing a "jazzy" feel
Post by: Mike Shawaluk on 2020-01-08 02:11 pm
Of course, no thread is complete without Mike saying "it can be done with a user object" :) . This approach would have the advantage of not disrupting the surrounding notes, and achieving any spacing desired (presuming the code allows for that).

Since there hasn't been much activity lately on beta versions, I would be willing to create an object for this, if there is interest in that approach.
Title: Re: Producing a "jazzy" feel
Post by: jfb-from-germany on 2020-01-08 06:59 pm
Hi Mike,

I would definitely be interested in a user object! That's exactly what I would like to have: just choose a position in the score and insert the object! So if you think this could be done without too much effort, I would surely be delighted!! :-)

Jan-Frerk Burmester
Title: Re: Producing a "jazzy" feel
Post by: jfb-from-germany on 2020-01-08 07:02 pm
Thanks also to HM Mueller!

In case the object should not work, you proposed a nice workaround (even if I would also think that it could take some time to get the spacings right...)

Title: Re: Producing a "jazzy" feel
Post by: Lawrie Pardy on 2020-01-08 09:49 pm
Of course, no thread is complete without Mike saying "it can be done with a user object" :) . This approach would have the advantage of not disrupting the surrounding notes, and achieving any spacing desired (presuming the code allows for that).

Since there hasn't been much activity lately on beta versions, I would be willing to create an object for this, if there is interest in that approach.
Soooo Mike,
this proposed object...
Would it maybe be able to do the tempo adjustments too?  Or maybe make that an optional feature in case someone needs more granular control?
What about quaver triplets that should be straight against the swing (does that make sense?)

I love the idea BTW.
Title: Re: Producing a "jazzy" feel
Post by: hmmueller on 2020-01-08 10:01 pm
this proposed object...
Would it maybe be able to do the tempo adjustments too?
No chance, I'd say. The best one could do is to provide a user tool which places the tempo variations on a selected separate staff. If the tool is genius, it could
* check that at some beat, there are no eighths, but there's a triplet - and then not add  the swing tempo changes in that quarter, but a single tempo for all of it (a measure that contains a triplet in on voice/staff and two "swingy" eighths in/on another would stump the tool, of course, as it would each of us ... NWC can't do this).
* look for explicit manual tempo variations on some staff and modify the computed swing tempo entries accordingly (with the additional problem that having two different tempos at the same instant in NWC produces an indeterministic result - so, one should probably add a 1/128 break before the inserted tempo change so that it always "wins");
* and, finally, mark its added tempo variations in such a way that they can be removed easily ...

I have not at all thought this through, so maybe there are different and much better possibilities; but this is what I'd assume one encounters when trying to play that swingy thing.

(And, please, if someone does this play thing, do not assume that the "swing ratio" is always 2:1 - it might also be 60:40 or 55:45; and it might change, so that ratio would have to be an option - even though the printed symbol always claims this "triplet ratio").

... just my destructive 2 cents ...

H.M.

P.S. Should I write "shuffle" instead of "swing"? - I think that would be the more correct term ...
Title: Re: Producing a "jazzy" feel
Post by: Mike Shawaluk on 2020-01-08 10:24 pm
Okay, so I did a little research, and made a few discoveries, which I will share here. They can be the beginnings of a "specification" for the new object.

The first thing I discovered is the name for these things, which is "tempo equation". There are a bunch of different forms for them, beyond the "jazzy feel" versions that we are talking about. Basically, the more common forms are the ones with single notes on each side of the equation, versus double notes. The single note versions seem to be used as an alternate way of expressing tempo changes, while the double note versions are for "swing feel", with different options for the right side of the equation, such as triplets and various dotted combinations.

And I will state upfront that I wasn't planning for this to handle the playback part, at least not initially. As @hmmueller said above, that would have to be a user tool, not a user object. I've read some of the other threads which discuss the technique of having a tempo track with rests and multiple tempo changes to create the playback effect (which is a kind of neat idea). But I think that the ornament part is what should be tackled first.

So, a few questions.  Do we want the tool to handle both of the equation types? (Single vs. double notes)  Or maybe have one tool for the single note types, and another for the double note types? Since each type of equation has different options.  One problem that comes to mind is how to represent the settings for the object, since I don't think it will be easy (or possible) to show graphical images in the parameters dialog. So we'll need some sort of nomenclature to describe the various types. I would see a drop down menu containing the various types.

There will be an ability to place the equation vertically on the staff, and I would include a scale factor so that it can be made larger or smaller as needed. I would try to use the Staff Cue Symbols for all notes and rests, so that people using swing fonts will see things the way they like them.

Let me know if I have missed anything important.
Title: Re: Producing a "jazzy" feel
Post by: Lawrie Pardy on 2020-01-09 01:25 am
Yeah, I figured playback control might be a (swinging) bridge too far...  :))
Single vs double vs both:
For development I'd guess that separating them would be easiest.  Note that the single variety is used in many ways, but if you're only doing the image and not playback then this is irrelevant.
For the "single" you will need to be able to have: any note value (including dotted) = any note value (including dotted).
The "double" seems almost self evident to me.

The swing symbol is very often used in conjunction with a metronome mark.  Perhaps this object can (optionally) function as a metronome mark too in that it can set the base tempo (forget trying to swing things).

For single = single, I know there can sometimes be confusion as to which side of the equation relates to which part of the score...
I believe the original convention was:
"new time value" = "old time value", but
current convention now seems to be:
"old time value" = "new time value".

It really needs context to make clear.  For me, the thing to remember is that the PULSE remains at the same tempo, regardless of the note value (crotchet vs minim vs quaver etc.).
E.G. going from a section in, say, 4/4 where the pulse is 4 in a bar to a section in, say, 3/4 where the pulse is 1 in a bar:
Old way: Dotted Minim = Crotchet
New way: Crotchet = Dotted Minim

Remember, the pulse must remain the same.  In this example if the 4/4 section was crotchet = 100 then the 3/4 section must be Dotted Minim = 100.  This effectively triples the crotchet speed, but the pulse remains the same...

Using scaled system font sounds like a great idea.
Title: Re: Producing a "jazzy" feel
Post by: William Ashworth on 2020-01-09 04:27 am
For single = single, I know there can sometimes be confusion as to which side of the equation relates to which part of the score...
I believe the original convention was:
"new time value" = "old time value", but
current convention now seems to be:
"old time value" = "new time value".

Gould ("Behind Bars") clarifies this. Current practice is to center the = over the barline and place the time values over the measures they apply to. That makes it old = new. However, it would probably be wise to have an option to notate old scores in the old way, for those who value history. That would be with the entire equation placed after the barline (over the new measure) and the order of tempi reversed, to new=old.  ("Old", by the way, means roughly before 1950.)
Title: Re: Producing a "jazzy" feel
Post by: jfb-from-germany on 2020-01-09 08:20 am
@ Mike:
wow, you don't lose time! :-) 
I don't see a great problem with the nomenclature: I would propose a dropdown-menu for each side of the equation, in which you choose the note value you would like to have.

I think the following values could be useful on each side of the equation:
- dotted whole
- whole
- dotted half
- half
- dotted quarter
- quarter
(- dotted eighth)
- eight
- 16th
- two beamed eighth notes
- quarter + eight with triplet
(- two beamed 16th notes?)

With these specifications it would also be possible to indicate proportions in some classical scores, f.ex. in some Renaissance vocal scores in which you might have a quicker middle-section in a 3-beat-measure (example: whole = dotted whole)
Title: Re: Producing a "jazzy" feel
Post by: Warren Porter on 2020-01-09 01:18 pm
Another way would be to repeat ||: (slow tempo indication) rest (fast tempo indication) rest  :||
Title: Re: Producing a "jazzy" feel
Post by: Mike Shawaluk on 2020-01-11 11:39 am
A few random thoughts as I begin prototyping this.

As I stated previously, I wanted to use only characters from Staff Symbols font for this object, so the user doesn't have to install extra fonts to get this to work. But it should also work with alternate staff fonts such as NWC2SwingDings.

That said, I did an inventory of the available characters, and I noticed that there are cue-sized half, quarter and eighth notes available, with upward stems. These would be sufficient for creating the two-note "swing" equations (augmented with a few lines and other text for beams and triplet brackets), but they won't be sufficient for the single-note equations, since those would potentially need a whole note. Also, the noteheads on the fully formed cue notes are a little different than the regular noteheads in the fonts that I have checked, specifically the quarter note.  It leads me to the conclusion that if I want the most flexibility, I will probably want to construct each note from the individual components (head, stem, flag or beam). I would need to do this for the augmentation dot and triplet bracket anyway.

At this point, I can see how to display the various note types, but I am trying to come up with a way to encode things so it will be easy to tweak the relative positions of the various notes, lines and text. That is, I don't want to "brute force" the positions. But this is just a programming thing, that shouldn't take too long to figure out. My fellow software developers will know what I mean here.

There is one final thing that I would appreciate your feedback on. I've noticed that when NWC (and other programs) draw a triplet bracket over the stem side of unbeamed eighth notes, the ending bracket is lined up with the stem of the note. I realize that this is per Behind Bars, but it always looks off center to me, because the flag on the final eighth note extends to the right of the bracket.  In searching online, I have seen some scores whose triplet brackets extend a bit to the right when the final note of the triplet has a flag. But I can't find any references that say this is acceptable practice.  Since I will be drawing the brackets manually in my code, I can make this adjustment if I want. Opinions would be appreciated.
Title: Re: Producing a "jazzy" feel
Post by: Lawrie Pardy on 2020-01-11 12:06 pm
Hey Mike,
I was thinking about what's available in the system font a couple of days ago and had already come to the conclusion that you'd have to draw the stems and beams to maintain consistency.

As for the triplet bracket and flagged stems, my personal preference is for the bracket to extend over the flag, even though it is inconsistent with how NWC does it.

Perhaps having the option for where the normal triplet bracket ends could be an enhancement in NWC 2.8?  Then a future version of the object might be able to read that setting and adjust accordingly. 
Title: Re: Producing a "jazzy" feel
Post by: jfb-from-germany on 2020-01-11 12:10 pm
I agree with Lawrie Pardy, I'd also prefer the bracket to extend over the flag. But it's not that important for me, so if it's easier otherwise, that's ok too!
Thanks for your efforts, Mike! I'm really looking forward to the new object!!!  :-)
Title: Re: Producing a "jazzy" feel
Post by: SEBC on 2020-01-16 11:01 am
Just popping in to say that I'm looking forward to using a new tool!
Title: Re: Producing a "jazzy" feel
Post by: Mike Shawaluk on 2020-01-18 10:47 pm
Just so nobody thinks I have lost interest in this project, I've been doing some coding to create the  necessary notes. It is a lot putzier (is that a word?) than I thought it would be... each part of the note (head, stem, flag, dot) has to be "printed" on the staff, with various cursor moves to get them correctly positioned relative to each other. But the good news is that I have all of the single notes figured out, so now I can move on to the double notes, with their beams and triplet brackets.

I should have a "test" object soon that people can look at and suggest various improvements that will cause me to go back to the drawing board and start over (j/k)