Print Page - Level headed beams?

Title: Level headed beams?
Post by: David Palmquist on 2006-08-09 06:07 AM

Title: Re: Level headed beams?
Post by: NoteWorthy Online on 2006-08-09 03:03 PM

I can tell you the factors that influence this:

accidentals under the beam (causing a shift that can reduce beam angle)
note intervals between beam members
number of stem flags (32nd notes will tend to trigger a NWC2 effort to keep stem lengths down)
stem direction (influences collision possibilities with the interior note heads)

At the end of the day, you might need to force a stem ~~direction~~ length to get a desired beam angle.

Title: Re: Level headed beams?
Post by: Richard Woodroffe on 2006-08-09 04:49 PM

Quote

At the end of the day, you might need to force a stem direction to get a desired beam angle.

Did you mean to say that ?
Either way, forcing a change to the stem length on one of the end notes will force a slope and modification of the length will get a desired angle with the stem direction in the way that you want it.

Code: [Select · Download]

!NoteWorthyComposerClip(2.0,Single)
|Note|Dur:32nd|Pos:-11|Opts:Stem=Up,StemLength=11,Beam=First
|Note|Dur:32nd|Pos:n-11|Opts:Stem=Up,Beam
|Note|Dur:32nd|Pos:#-10|Opts:Stem=Up,Beam
|Note|Dur:32nd|Pos:-9|Opts:Stem=Up,Beam
|Text|Text:"9"|Font:PageSmallText|Pos:16|Justify:Right|Placement:AtNextNote
|Note|Dur:32nd|Pos:n-8|Opts:Stem=Up,Beam
|Note|Dur:32nd|Pos:n-7|Opts:Stem=Up,Beam
|Note|Dur:32nd|Pos:n-5|Opts:Stem=Up,Beam
|Note|Dur:32nd|Pos:b-4|Opts:Stem=Up,Beam
|Text|Text:"----------------------------------- \|"|Font:PageSmallText|Pos:15|Justify:Right|Placement:AtNextNote
|Note|Dur:32nd|Pos:n-4|Opts:Stem=Up,Beam=End
|Text|Text:"\|-----------------------------------"|Font:PageSmallText|Pos:15
|Note|Dur:32nd|Pos:#-3|Opts:Stem=Down,Beam=First
|Note|Dur:32nd|Pos:-2|Opts:Stem=Down,Beam
|Note|Dur:32nd|Pos:n-1|Opts:Stem=Down,Beam
|Note|Dur:32nd|Pos:n0|Opts:Stem=Down,Beam
|Text|Text:"9"|Font:PageSmallText|Pos:16|Justify:Right|Placement:AtNextNote
|Note|Dur:32nd|Pos:n2|Opts:Stem=Down,Beam
|Note|Dur:32nd|Pos:b3|Opts:Stem=Down,Beam
|Note|Dur:32nd|Pos:n3|Opts:Stem=Down,Beam
|Note|Dur:32nd|Pos:#4|Opts:Stem=Down,Beam
|Text|Text:"----------------------------------- \|"|Font:PageSmallText|Pos:15|Justify:Right|Placement:AtNextNote
|Note|Dur:32nd|Pos:5|Opts:Stem=Down,Beam=End
!NoteWorthyComposerClip-End

Title: Re: Level headed beams?
Post by: David Palmquist on 2006-08-10 12:32 AM

I sometimes do override the stem length to influence the slope, but I guess I hadn't noticed the pattern before. The piece I'm working on has the two runs side by side, and the thickness of the beams made the slope difference really stand out.

Interesting anomaly, and with the override, no big deal.

Thanks Rich and Eric.

I always find changing the stem length a little tedious. It would be nice if we didn't have to check the override box before entering a number, and if there was visual indicator in the note properties tab to tell the user what the "default" length is. it wouldn't be a matter of trial and error. As it is, one has to guess if an entry such as 5 or 13 will make it shorter or longer, view the result, then
||: [move] open the note properties again, alter the number, check the result [/move] :||

Title: Re: Level headed beams?
Post by: Richard Woodroffe on 2006-08-10 06:45 AM

Quote

if there was visual indicator in the note properties tab to tell the user what the "default" length is. it wouldn't be a matter of trial and error.

100% agree !

Title: Re: Level headed beams?
Post by: NoteWorthy Online on 2006-08-10 01:50 PM

This might be possible if only a single note is selected. The display properties could be queried to determine the currently visible note length.

In general, though, in the absence of a user override, a note doesn't have a stem length until it is visually rendered. This is why nothing is shown in the box.

Title: Re: Level headed beams?
Post by: Rick G. on 2006-08-10 06:05 PM

Quote from: NoteWorthy Online – 2006-08-10 01:50 PM

... in the absence of a user override, a note doesn't have a stem length until it is visually rendered. This is why nothing is shown in the box.

In the absence of a user override, a note sometimes has a non integer stem length (e.g. 5.5).
The spin box routine would need to be like the one in Page Setup->Margins.

It would be a large improvement if NWC2 allowed decimal stem length and note/accidental spacing. Negative note/accidental spacing would help as well.

A negative stem length could indicate Stem=Down. This might simplify User Tools.

just dreaming ....

Title: Re: Level headed beams?
Post by: Carl Mill on 2006-08-10 11:31 PM

I posed this question back on June 25,2004 in topic 4259. https://forum.noteworthycomposer.com/?topic=4259.0 (https://forum.noteworthycomposer.com/?topic=4259.0)

My suggestion was to start a 0 for the default length then go 1, 2, 3, etc. for a longer stem or -1, -2, -3, etc. for a shorter stem. This would be a more user friendly approach for this problem. I think I also put this on the Wish List at the same time.

Title: Re: Level headed beams?
Post by: fitzclan on 2006-08-11 12:21 AM

I'm liking the idea of negative numbers for note/accidental spacing. It would make it easier to align characters from Boxmarks and Lawrie's Swing Dings. It would be nice to have the option.

Title: Re: Level headed beams?
Post by: David Palmquist on 2006-08-11 07:32 AM

Quote

a note doesn't have a stem length until it is visually rendered

I think an unflagged / unbeamed stem normally has a value of 7 (i.e. the vertical distance of an octave). If it's not practical to show the stem length in the choice window, perhaps Eric would consider just adding the phrase "default size = 7" immediately below the words Override Stem Length in the note properties screen grey area?

Quote

My suggestion was to start a 0 for the default length then go 1, 2, 3, etc. for a longer stem or -1, -2, -3, etc. for a shorter stem. This would be a more user friendly approach for this problem.

I like this idea. There's a tradeoff, if you need to see the description of the note in order to decide what length you need to use elsewhere.

Title: Re: Level headed beams?
Post by: Rick G. on 2006-08-11 06:05 PM

Quote from: David Palmquist – 2006-08-11 07:32 AM

I think an unflagged / unbeamed stem normally has a value of 7

This clip should alter your thinking.

Code: [Select · Download]

!NoteWorthyComposerClip(2.0,Single)
|Clef|Type:Treble
|Note|Dur:4th|Pos:-8
|Note|Dur:4th|Pos:-8|Opts:StemLength=8
|Note|Dur:4th|Pos:5|Opts:Stem=Up
|Note|Dur:4th|Pos:5|Opts:Stem=Up,StemLength=6
|Note|Dur:4th|Pos:6|Opts:Stem=Up
|Note|Dur:4th|Pos:6|Opts:Stem=Up,StemLength=6
|Note|Dur:4th|Pos:7|Opts:Stem=Up
|Note|Dur:4th|Pos:7|Opts:Stem=Up,StemLength=5
|Note|Dur:4th|Pos:8|Opts:Stem=Up
|Note|Dur:4th|Pos:8|Opts:Stem=Up,StemLength=5
|Note|Dur:4th|Pos:9|Opts:Stem=Up
|Note|Dur:4th|Pos:9|Opts:Stem=Up,StemLength=5
!NoteWorthyComposerClip-End

Also, if you put this clip on a staff with 16 lines, you may see that the default lengths are not always whole numbers.

Title: Re: Level headed beams?
Post by: Carl Mill on 2006-08-12 12:51 AM

Rick is correct, not all stems are born the same length. This is why I believe that starting at with a default of 0, no matter where the note is located on the staff, then allowing for positive or negative adjustments, would be more user friendly. Similar to the Staff Position adjustment for Expression Placement.

Title: Re: Level headed beams?
Post by: David Palmquist on 2006-08-12 11:38 AM

Using Rick's example, I see what you mean.

Carl, I often use a headless, muted note with stem length = 0, as an anchor for a comping slash. How do you see this working if we start with zero as the default, and know (now) that the stem length is indeed different depending on the note placement and stem direction?

Title: Re: Level headed beams?
Post by: Carl Mill on 2006-08-14 11:49 PM

Quote

Carl, I often use a headless, muted note with stem length = 0, as an anchor for a comping slash. How do you see this working if we start with zero as the default, and know (now) that the stem length is indeed different depending on the note placement and stem direction?

David, I'm not quite sure what you mean by a "comping slash" in conjunction with a headless note. Could you give me a coded sample? I think in all situations that starting at "0" and then extending the stem length with positive number and reducing the length with negative number until the stem disappears would be a more user friendly approach to this feature. I'm not a programer, so I don't know how difficult the would be to code.

Title: Re: Level headed beams?
Post by: David Palmquist on 2006-08-15 02:20 AM

Title: Re: Level headed beams?
Post by: Carl Mill on 2006-08-16 01:24 AM

Ah, now I see what you mean by comping slashes. I guess this is used for guitar and jazz works. This is something I doubt I would ever use, since I’m still stuck in the classical era still. I like the idea of a “No Stem” button. Actually, before Eric plays with this problem, I would rather see some improvements elsewhere. The program is really great as is, but some user friendly convenient features such as a Layering toggle button and a Preview toggle button would be nice instead of going to the drop-down menu. This is something I use all the time.

I also think that slurs could be better placed, especially those that are presently at the stem ends. The way they are placed now looks awful, especially those with articulations. The slur is rooted in awkward position below the stem and takes up a lot of room between staves. They should be closer to the note heads like you see in professional printing. I’ll stop now.

Carl

Title: Re: Level headed beams?
Post by: David Palmquist on 2006-08-16 01:38 AM

Yes, the slurs need improvement for sure.

My complaint about the zero note stem thing is it's just very difficult to adjust the stem length, zero or otherwise. It requires too many movements from mouse to keyboard and back. Since I use it to finalize the appearance of notation before printing, I can be using it several times on each staff for several staffs. I would rate it as a medium priority item.

(I, too, had never seen comping slashes until I started copying jazz charts.)

NoteWorthy Composer Forum

Forums => General Discussion => Topic started by: David Palmquist on 2006-08-09 06:07 AM