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Topic: lyrics with diacriticals (Read 10955 times) previous topic - next topic

lyrics with diacriticals

With experience, I am learning more and more about NWC. And since I recently figured out how to compose texts in Slavonic on my word processor, I have also been able to do lyrics in Slavonic. NWC handles these better, in fact, than MW Word (Word does not recognize one letter in my Slavonic font, and will not display or print it, while NWC has no trouble with it). But I cannot get NWC to do lyrics in Slovak or Latvian, although these should be a lot easier than Slavonic. I do the lyrics in Word; they do not require a special font as Slavonic does, because it is only a matter of the Latin alphabet with some diacritical marks, and the diacriticals are available with a number of the standard fonts used in Word. However, NWC does not recognize most of the diacriticals and will not display or print them. Does anyone have a solution?

Re: lyrics with diacriticals

Reply #1 –
This has been discussed before, in the context of Cyrillic.

NWC is fully capable of inserting whatever you want into the text editor -- even dingbats, as well as upper-code characters (including the ones with diacritical marks).

If your word processor constructs accented characters from components, by using multiple keystrokes, then maybe that won't transfer into NWC (it wouldn't transfer into Notepad, either). But it you choose pre-drawn accented characters directly from the character map, using the clipboard, it works just fine.

Many fonts code the accented characters in a way that the standard Windows character map does not handle well. I recommend that you find a free alternative. "Character Map Pro" is a widely-distributed freebie that allows you to choose whether you are working in the Latin, Greek, Turkish, or whatever character subsets. I know this one works with NWC, at least for Cyrillic and dingbats, as I have used it.

At one point, I had put up a web page showing the technique, but I took it down. Trust me, NWC can handle non-Latin characters.

Also, in NWC Page Setup, on the Fonts selection page, notice that in the lower right corner there is the ability to choose which kind of character set you are working with.

Re: lyrics with diacriticals

Reply #2 –
Well, I'm sorry to report that this is just not working for me. As I reported, it does fine with Cyrillic, and not just Russian etc. but Slavonic, which is much more problematic. But when I switch to Slovak or Latvian it does not work. I compose the text in MS Word, using Times New Roman or other standard font. I insert the letters with diacriticals either by switching the keyboard to the lanuguage in question, or by entering them from the standard Word character map--it makes no difference which. I put the text on Clipboard. I test it in Word; the Clipboard is doing fine, and duplicates the text with all the necessary signs. I go to NWC, open a line of lyrics, press Control-V, and I get the text minus most of the diacriticals. It is exactly the same procedure I use successfully with Slavonic.

As for Page Setup > Fonts, I assume you mean the box that appears at the bottom if I click on options. This gives me a choice of "Western" or "Hebrew"--no "East European" or "Baltic," which is what I presumably would want. But then there is no Cyrillic either, and yet I can enter a lyric in Slavonic with no problem.

Stephen Reynolds

Re: lyrics with diacriticals

Reply #3 –
You can enter lyrics in Word first, but you cannot expect Word formatting to carry over into NWC. An NWC lyric is plain ASCII text. Text created in MS-Word may not appear the same when converted to plain ASCII text. The general rule of thumb is all of the following must be true:

- the font is true-type
- you can select the font in the Window's Character Map program (not the one in Word)
- you can see and copy the character from the Character Map to the clipboard
- the character key code is less than 256
- the character key code does not clash with the underscore, space, hyphen, and CR/LF used in the lyric editor

If all of this is true, you can use the font characters in an NWC lyric and expect it to work.

Re: lyrics with diacriticals

Reply #4 –
>> "The character's key code is less than 256."

Good point, Noteworthy.

A font may contain more than 256 positions (0-255). But only codes 0-255 can be used, unless you have the special capability to use 2-byte characters (Asian fonts).

What happens is that some software will go to the characters numbered above 255, then shuffle them down to the lower range when you specify that you are using a non-latin character set. But this does not work the same way for all programs.

For some fonts, the necessary non-latin characters appear in codes between 129 and 255, in place of the accented latin characters that would be used in (say) French or German. In such a case, there is no need for the software to re-code.

Good example: When ASCII was invented, the Euro currency character did not exist. It actually sits in code location 700-something, I believe. Meanwhile, code 128 is unused. Modern software such as MS-Word can look for a character called "Euro" and re-position it to code 128.

Your best solution would be to find (if possible) a font that used the characters you want, in the ASCII code positions. Failing that, if you have a font editor, you can make a custom code page in which you transfer characters from the non-ASCII positions into the code locations occupied by latin characters that you don't need.

I haven't had a problem with fonts because (a) My language needs are not complex, and (b) When I do need access to non-latin characters, or dingbats, the font in question has coded them into ASCII positions.

Re: lyrics with diacriticals

Reply #5 –
This is a deviation from the original subject, and from NoteWorthy, but I can't let say that the position 128 is normal for modern softwares.

Modern softwares should be able to communicate through internet with other modern softwares. For that, there exist a number of standardized code pages, defined by ISO. Most of those code pages share some characteristics:
- codes 0 to 127 are identical to ASCII (note that ASCII does not define anything above 127);
- codes 0 to 31 and 128 to 159 are reserved for control characters.

The most commonly used standard is ISO-8859-1, which is often mistakenly called "extended ascii", and which contains almost all characters used in english, french, german, and some other occidental languages, but not the "oe" or "OE" diacritics, neither the upper case "ÿ" (that's why I can't show you these characters in this message). Also they don't contain the Euro symbol.

The *bad* solution chosen by Microsoft was to define these characters (at least Euro, oe and OE, but not uml-Y) in the reserved control zone 128-159. This solution is bad because non-microsoft softwares follow the standard which forbids using this zone.

The *good* solution chosen by ISO was to define a new code page, ISO-8859-15, which is identical to ISO-8859-1, but for the Euro in place of the currency symbol 164 (¤) and the oe, OE and uml-Y in place of other rare characters (I beleive they are the ¼, ½ and ¾ characters at positions 188, 189 and 190).

Actually, the *very good* solution will be to allow 16-bits unicode characters in internet transfers, but it will require some time before all is formalized and implementations follow.

Re: lyrics with diacriticals

Reply #6 –
Poor Stephen -- all he wanted was to put some Slavonic into NWC lyrics, and we gave him an arcane discussion about font coding! Mea culpa.

Stephen: What font are you using? (That is, trying to use.)

Re: lyrics with diacriticals

Reply #7 –
These facts are very important. Since the lyrics are being composed in Word before moving them to NWC, it is essential that the technical details be understood, so the end result can be controlled.

Re: lyrics with diacriticals

Reply #8 –
The Windows character map is called charmap.exe and is in the /Windows directory. You can make a shortcut to it on your desktop, in a desktop folder, or in the Start menu.

It's a little clunky to use if you employ the mouse to copy the characters to the clipboard, but it's a good reference for the ALT keyboard codes. Ones you use commonly you will soon remember, or you can make a little cheat-sheet of the ones you employ routinely.

Re: lyrics with diacriticals

Reply #9 –
Believe it or not, I didn't even know that MS Word had its own character map (I have always used the Windows Character Map, or a freeware alternative).

This point was made above, but it is essential: MS Word, and some other programs, will under some conditions construct accented characters by superposing an accent with an otherwise-unaccented character. The finished character is not a single entry in the character map. Thus, it is not represented by a single byte, and cannot be used in NWC or many other programs.

I have a hieroglyphic font. It can be used in any program, including NWC. As a prank, I took one hymn where I was having trouble singing my part, and re-printed a clone in NWC. But in place of latin lyrics, I used hieroglyphics. When the choir member who stands next to me complained (as usual), I told him that I was having difficulty understanding my part, and showed him my music.

Re: lyrics with diacriticals

Reply #10 –
Thanks for the replies. And don't apologize for the "arcane discussion"; I appreciate knowing why it doesn't work.

Usually I just go with Times New Roman, the default font in MS Word. I have tried with several other fonts that display the necessary characters, always with the same results. How do I access the Windows character map, as opposed to the Word character map? It seems a bit nutty that one would work and the other not, but I guess that what happens when you needn't worry about competition. MS seems to like bad solutions to problems.

Stephen Reynolds

Re: lyrics with diacriticals

Reply #11 –
my correct e-mail address is the one above--I saw the error too late!

Stephen Reynolds

Re: lyrics with diacriticals

Reply #12 –
Thanks, all! I spent several hours making a list of the numbers assigned to letters in Times New Roman, TNR Baltic, TNR Central European, and TNR Turkish. When this is finished, it should cover anything I will need in NWC in Latin-alphabet lyrics. That is, if I learn to use it properly. I see that the same number may be assigned to different characters in these fonts, for example to a vowel with a macron in the Baltic font and to the same vowel with a circumflex in the others. It seems like a poor procedure, but there is is. I also now have some of the freeware to control fonts and the keyboard, but I have not yet figured out what to do with it. I'll let you know when I can get a lyric in Slovak or Latvian into NWC--or if I need more help!

Stephen R.

Re: lyrics with diacriticals

Reply #13 –
This is the right place to ask.

I myself don't have the time to do it, BUT if you know someone with a font editor, or have one yourself (they are not cheap), there is always the following solution: Create a font (or modify one) so that the characters you need are pre-constructed with a variety of diacritical marks. This may not be a difficult operation; presumably, most of your needs are of already-existing characters joined to already-existing diacriticals. It is a matter of cut-and-paste withing the editor.

It doesn't matter what you call the characters, as long as you can pick them from the character map, and as long as there aren't too many of them. Caution: Some code locations are reserved for control characters. Since not all control caharacters are activated in many applications or operating systems, it is common to "sneak" characters into otherwise-inactive control locations. Someone who knows how to use a font editor would also know about this.

Re: lyrics with diacriticals

Reply #14 –
Stephen,

Does the "Script" property do your work? (Disabled in wsp3, restored with wsp4)

There are some available Scripts as Cyrillic or Middle European.

Re: lyrics with diacriticals

Reply #15 –
Dear Ertugrul,

Tell me about the script property. I have no idea whether is a solution to the present problem; how do I access it? I am now compiling a list of the numbers assigned to each relevant character in the Windows (not Word) character map, and I will experiment with this when I have finished. I do wish they would get the Unicode standard in operation in e-mail; then I could even write your name properly!

Stephen R.

Re: lyrics with diacriticals

Reply #16 –
When you "modify" a font at File > Page Setup > Fonts, you can access the "Script" pull-down list (on the fonts dialogue box), which includes the following character sets:

Western (Default), Hebrew, Arabic, Greek, Turkish, Balticanan, Central European, Cyrillic.

Note that not every font has a script property. (Times New Roman does.)

PS: If you installed wsp3 and haven't upgraded to 4 and 5, the Script property will be unavailable.

Hth

Re: lyrics with diacriticals

Reply #17 –
Make sure that the script is the same in both word and NWC.